Should Pokémon Types Work In D&D? With Jasper Cartwright
Games and Feelings is weekly, gamers! Let’s welcome new Permanent Guest Jasper Cartwright as we answer your questions about DMs allowing Pokemon-style super-effective-ness, coming to a fraught game after all the drama is over, and settling a sports debate with your girlfriend’s dad.
Content Schedule
Week 1) Games and Feelings with Permanent Guest Jasper and Friends
Week 2) What’s Your Favorite Pokemon and then I Say Something Nice About You
Week 3) G&F w/ Jasper and Friends
Week 4) The Replay on Main Feed!
Sponsors
- Brilliant, where the first 200 people to click the link brilliant.org/gamesandfeelings will get 20% off Brilliant’s annual premium subscription.
- Tavour, our favorite craft beer app. Use code gamesandfeelings for $10 off after your first order of $25 or more.
Find Us Online
- ask questions: gamesandfeelings.com/questions
- patreon: patreon.com/gamesandfeelings
- twitter: twitter.com/gamesnfeelings
- insta: instagram.com/gamesnfeelings
Credits
- Host, Producer, & Question Keeper: Eric Silver
- Permanent Guest: Jasper Cartwright
- Editor & Mixer: Mischa Stanton
- Music by: Jeff Brice
- Art by: Jessica Boyd
- Multitude: multitude.productions
About Us
Games and Feelings is an advice podcast about being human and loving all types of games: video games, tabletop games, party games, laser tag, escape rooms, game streams, and anything else that we play for fun. Join Question Keeper Eric Silver and a revolving cast of guests as they answer your questions at the intersection of fun and humanity, since, you know, you gotta play games with other people. Whether you need a game recommendation, need to sort out a dispute at the table, or decide whether an activity is good for a date, we’re your instruction manual. New episodes drop every other Friday.
Transcript
Eric: Hello gamers! Welcome to Games and Feelings and advice show about playing games, being human and dealing with the fact that those games will involve other humans, in 2023, it's the same. I am your host and question keeper Eric Silver. And the greatest game that I got as a kid during the winter holidays was a pinball machine. [Jasper gasps] My dad recovered a Godzilla pinball machine from a from someone who was throwing it out. This was like when pinball was going to be the future and it had like those LED screens and you could hit the ball again - but this was like an old school one. So I still remember the sound of the Godzilla screaming when you turn it on. It goes like this - [Godzilla scream]
Jasper: Whoa!
Eric: Every time. Every time.
Jasper: I was transported back to your childhood, I was sitting there next to a young Eric Silver just like - whoa!
Eric: You came back into my house, to be watching my dad play it play it all the time. And the, in the loud hitting of like a woodblock somewhere in the machine. When you got the replay. It was so loud for no reason. I don't know why. [Jasper laughs] Hey, Jasper Cartwright. What was the best game that you ever got as a kid during the winter holidays?
Jasper: Hey, what was the best game I ever got? Final Fantasy 8. I think? I played it like religiously with my mom. No, sorry. Wait, no. Well, that yes. But no, I remember specifically for Christmas. Actually. We got uh, the Spyro game I kind of realized from your mind what Spyro game it is. But it was a one way you could skateboard in it. And me and my mom got like, obscenely good at skateboarding in Spyro, which was so much fun. Like we'd be up for like hours just like collecting all the gyms in the skateboard park. And like trying to figure out how to get to like the upper level you have to do like a sick ollie the way up to like another bit. And now when I think back I'm like, what spar had skateboarding in it? That's mental, but man, such, such fun times.
Eric: I'm surprised that Spyro had skateboarding in it, because that's sounds like Spyros m.o.
Jasper: Yeah, it sounds like his whole bag. Right?
Eric: Yeah, definitely. We need to make him more radical than Crash so he can he can get tasty licks on, just like Tony Hawk.
Jasper: Exactly! Exactly. And Crash, it just done Crash Team Racing, which is like an absolute out of the park for them. So I think that like, this was their response. It was like, "Well, you have cars, we have skateboards."
Eric: [Laughs] We - he's a radical dude, Spyro.
Jasper: Cars won, just to clarify for everyone, cars definitely won, thing was pretty pretty dope, but the skateboarding little mini games and stuff was really fun. So...
Eric: I want to go into the fact that your mom was so powerful by being both a mom and good at video games.
Jasper: Oh, yeah. Yeah, she was a good combo. She, She just had like a real thing about like, collecting things in video games. Like she would play them. She would go "Uh-uh-uh! Go back, go back in this like two gems on the side that like that." Like that's the kind of, you know, full backseat gamer that my mom was just like, "oh, no, over there. Over there." I'd like go, go forward. Like Yeah, Mom, it doesn't matter. It's fine. Like the egg catcher around the corner. We've got enough for him. It's fine. Or whatever. And she's like, "No, no, no, go get them."
Eric: Gotta 100% it, that's -
Jasper: "Go get them, otherwise I'll turn it off!" Honestly she, she'd go that far, she'd 100% be like "No, no, no, no, no. Like, if we're completing this we're *completing* this, there's no - we're not gonna do halfsies here."
Eric: "Alright, Jasper. Either you clean your room or we get 100% Those are the only two choices."
Jasper: Exactly! And you can imagine that me as a child. I was like "yeah, you know what, let's, let's 100% this game instead of cleaning my room, that sounds like a lot better an idea." [Laughs]
Eric: That's perfect. Well, you can already hear by the absolute bants that Jasper and I have embarked on in 2023, I'm so happy Jasper that you're here. And you know what Jasper? Do you just want to like stay here on Games and Feelings like forever? Would that be good for you?
Jasper: Do you know what, I'm gonna go ahead and say yes, please. [Laughs]
Eric: Oh hell yes.
Jasper: Genuinely so pumped about this like so pumped about this.
Eric: Incredible, we have some really wonderful housekeeping announcements, because Games and Feelings is going weekly!
Jasper: [Gasps]
Eric: First of all, umbrella, you're getting weekly Games and Feelings in your podcast feed, and on weeks one - so I have this laid out in a little calendar. So on week one and week three we are doing the Games and Feelings episode that you know and love, and Jasper Cartwright of the internet, and of games, and of episode one of Games and Feelings -
Jasper: Yesss!
Eric: Is going to be our permanent guest!
Jasper: Yes! That's right baybeeee! Don't get sick of this voice because, you know, you're getting a lot! [Jasper and Eric laugh]
Eric: "Hey, just get used to me right now we've already made the announcemenet!"
Jasper: Just, right, I'll settle right in, slip right in is fine. Just, it's, the water's fine. It's nice. Come on in. We have a great time. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so stoked that you even asked me, I was like, "Oh! What?! yes, of course. I want to come on this. This is great. It gives me more excuses to play games as well." Just perfect.
Eric: Yeah, you - "Oh, sorry, babe, I gotta go play some games, Eric is making me!"
Jasper: "Eurk, Eric's giving me homework! Gotta play the Switch just in case he asks for more - "
Eric: "I gotta have feelings!"
Jasper: "I gotta have more feelings about games! God." [Laughs]
Eric: Listen, not only are you making incredible work over at Three Black Halflings, and the various other things that y'all do, but like you're also someone who cares about all the types of games like I do as well. The premise of Games and Feelings is about, it's about video games. It's about tabletop RPGs. And - but it's also about board games. It's about sports.
Jasper: Yeah!
Eric: And like card games and all these other things. And you also love escape rooms, which is very essential.
Jasper: All about all the games, if there is anything, if there's any like to complete, to win element of something, I'll love it. If there is a more holistic approach to that and it's more about like teamwork and stuff. That's also amazing. Like, I just, I think actually, the title of this podcast sums me up perfectly, which is the games give me feelings. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel more alive and more like to the point where I was actually on this conversation in the day with my wonderful fiance. And she was just like, "Oh, you don't really like seem to, you know, enjoy, like, just watching, you know, watching TV or watching a film." I'm like, "because it's not enough for me! Like, it's not enough," like TV and film are great. They're so good. And I love them like craigville are great TV show is like the absolute bomb. But like unless it's like top shelf stuff. It's not enough. It's not enough, like, doesn't bring me in, doesn't get me you know, hooked. I'm not like there on the edge of my seat. Whereas pretty much any game, even if it's kind of crap. I'll give it like a good three hours before I give up. Like at least, you know what I mean? I'll really stick with it for a lot longer. TV show? I'll give you 10 minutes. And I'm like, Nah, I'm bored, let's go, let's move on. But like a game, I'll invest time in that game, just to see if it gets good. And it's worth it!
Eric: I'm with you on that.
Jasper: Games will surprise you, games will surprise you, for sure.
Eric: I want to be surprised. I want to have feelings about this stuff. And we could have a whole conversation about -
Jasper: About just that!
Eric: Why that's TV and movies fault. While games are good. And you can go to other places like that. But, but I still have more housekeeping announcements to make. So like I said, we're doing this revolving set of content. Now that we're going weekly in Games and Feelings. So if week one is Games and Feelings and week three is Games and Feelings, and Jasper Cartwright is going to be there all the time. In week two, we're going to be reviving an old podcast of mine and we're slotting it into the Games and Feelings rundown - outline?
Jasper: Outline! Yeah. Yeah. Silhouette, the silhouette of Games and Feelings, we're just a sleek and sexual extra little thing here to make it look even more dynamic and even more cool.
Eric: Who's that podcast? Yes, that's exactly it! It's "What's Your Favorite Pokemon? And Then I Say Something Nice About You!" Yes, the show that I started all the way back in March 2020. And it has its own feed. I will send y'all over there. But I miss doing it. I miss talking to people about their favorite Pokemon. Jasper, you're gonna come on to do that in next week.
Jasper: I am so excited to talk about this little Pokemon that I'm going to talk about because, it's just like such a special place in my heart. Like I genuinely feel like honestly, I had this conversation with my mom. I was like, I think that my Pokemon is like when I was a younger, was like my oldest and truest friend. So if you want to hear more about that, you gotta check out this episode, because I'm very excited.
Eric: We're gonna get there. Yeah, so Jasper is gonna be the first episode of the rebooted What's your favorite Pokemon?
Jasper: Woo! Like I said, get used to my voice guys just get used to my voice.
Eric: Hell yeah.
Jasper: I wouldn't be here.
Eric: And then on week four, we are doing main feed episodes of the replay, which is where Amanda and I talk about advice questions that have been submitted to advice columnists, and they are so bad at games, they give the worst fucking answer. [Jasper laughs] And then we give better answers about it. So that is our Patreon feed. If you want more of those, you gotta join the Patreon where we're doing main feed episodes of the replay as well. And the majority of these episodes are also going to have games that are giving me feelings, segments. So if you want recommendations, you gotta listen to all the episodes that are going to come out weekly -
Jasper: - Listen to them all. Listen to them all.
Eric: Just listen them *all.* So we're getting plenty of games, games and or feelings. Jasper is going to bring on friends here. I'm going to bring on new people all the time. It's going to be wonderful and I just get to hang out with Jasper. Apparently the only way to get make new friends as an adult is to start a podcast with someone. Yeah, and here we are.
Jasper: Yeah, Yep. It's like so hard though. Because like legitimately, I feel like, and this is, I'm gonna big you up like legitimately I have such a joy talking to you that like every single time we've hung out when we haven't been recording I've been a bit like, kinda should have recorded that because that was that was good. [Eric laughs] It was funny or like Eric said a great thing and people needed to hear that like That was funny. Like I'm thinking about that, even the conversation we had when I was extremely hungover hanging out with you and Amanda having Korean barbecue like even that was funny, like, people should have listened to it like...
Eric: That was, yeah, it's really funny now that I've met you and Jeremy in person now like I've just met Jeremy in person at PAX a little while ago. And like I finally got Jeremy like in the United States for long enough to hang out with them. So it's nice. Yeah, I thought like, you know, you get context for your friends who are online. But yeah, Jasper has come to New York City, because Jasper had, has done America world tours, or every single person has wanted to drink him under the table while he's there. And the only person who didn't want to was me and Amanda. So you're just allowed to sit on our couch.
Jasper: And it was an absolute delight! Nice. Like I rocked up, and they didn't offer me a drink, like an alcoholic beverage. Like I was like, absolutely tea and water and coffee, whatever available, but there was like, and I was like, yes, thank God, like I'm so happy. Like, I just don't want that. That's not my vibe today. And it was great. It was so good. And I believe you were actually watching a game when - were you watching a game when I got there? You're watching some basketball. You just finished watching the basketball. I think when I got there...
Eric: Probably? Listen, time doesn't mean anything anymore. That's why we should record it and put it on the internet. So listeners can tell me with all the things I can't remember.
Jasper: Yeah, that's true time is completely irrelevant at the moment, I find, especially over like the holiday period, as we have discussed before, over at the Three Black Halflings Patreon actually, we had kicked back and we were talking about how like we just get into the holidays and everything just becomes nebulous. Everything is just like "Meeehhhh two weeks who, where we, just nothing happens. It's wild."
Eric: It's kind of funny. I feel like you now living in the north of the UK, like living in a more bucolic area. I've seen photos of the snow outside your house. It's got - Mr. Tumnus is fucking hanging out there.
Jasper: Oh yeah, me and Mr. Tumnus be chillin, it's honestly delightful. The amount of people I had jump in my DMs like, "what fantastical land if you found yourselves in like, where are you on holiday?" And I'm like, Dude, this is my house. They're like "*gasp* What?" And I'm like, Yeah, you can afford like nice houses up north. [Laughs] A couple of my Southern friends we're like, "Oh, I hate this." Yeah, for all the American listeners. It's like the housing market is very simple in the UK. South bad, expensive, North good, cheap, sometimes bad cheap. But you know, you can also find good cheap.
Eric: It's, it's so funny. You living in the middle of the country and me not celebrating Christmas seem to be the same. [Laughs]
Jasper: Yeah, yeah.
Eric: We're around because everything shut down. But it's like, well, we're already used to that. It's not like we're waiting. It's like, oh, I can't go do anything. So like I associate you with this weird time. We're recording this like right before Christmas. But this time like at the end of December I now associate with Jasper.
Jasper: Yeah, absolutely.
Eric: It's like Jasper is hanging out with Mr. Tumnus and I don't celebrate Christ. It's exactly the same.
Jasper: Yeah! There we go. You should just hang out with me. Mr. Tumnus. Mr. Tumnus doesn't celebrate Christ either, Mr. Tumnus is just like -
Eric: [Laughs] Well no he does, Aslan is pretty much Jesus.
Jasper: That's true. Yeah. But like, okay, let's be honest, though. I think everyone will be a lot more on board with Jesus. If it was just like a dope Golden Lion that just came in. Kinda badass occasionally. Like, I'd probably be more on board with the whole concept of Jesus if that was what we were talking about, I believe, "okay, let's go lion! Okay!"
Eric: Like imagine, imagine someone wins an Oscar or like with a championship, sports championship? And it's like, yeah, first I want to give a shout out to Jesus. It's like yeah, Jesus touched him with a mighty paw and made him stronger.
Jasper: [Laughs] I want to give a shout Aslan. Just like totally genuine just a shout out to Aslan would be that, whoever that player was would go up in my estimations. So I might I might even do that. If I ever win an Oscar. My first thank you will be to Aslan.
Eric: From whom all blessings flow. I couldn't have done this without you, my man.
Jasper: Thank you for your mighty paw.
Eric: Thank you for blessing me. When I went through that wardrobe. It was awesome. I experienced a lifetime and it felt like a moment here on Earth. So that emotion has let me connect with the characters.
Jasper: Could you imagine committing that hard, just like a roomful of Hollywood elites just looking at you like "what? who let this guy in?" It would be so good. I really want to do it now. I can't promise, I'll do it my first Oscar but the second one I'll definitely do it, like definitely.
Eric: I mean, honestly, with all the things that are going on with actors in Hollywood and like, with Will Smith's like, continual L redemption towards doing after last year's Oscars like you can truly say anything.
Jasper: Anything! And I think I'd probably have a number of people come up to me like, "Hey, can I learn about Aslan? Can I get involved on the ground floor of this like new religion your founding?" Like ooooh, This is about, This is between me and a lion. Okay?
Eric: You put on an out of office for your emails like, hey, I want to be on the Dawn Treader for the next three weeks. Sorry, no internet.
Jasper: [Laughs] Yeah, me and this mouse. We gotta, we got some sialing to do, so I'm gonna need you to just chill on my emails for a minute. This is my version of Christmas. It's just two weeks where I go on the Dawn Treader. That's it.
Eric: Well you living in the UK everyone's gonna be like, "Oh yeah, he's doing it for Turkish delights that makes more sense."
Jasper: Yeah yeah yeah.
Eric: And the Americans are like what the fuck are those?! Magical candy.
Jasper: Turkish delights are also fine as well. Like they're not that...
Eric: They're just like marzipan. It's whatever.
Jasper: It's fine.
Eric: Alright, so if you have not read all of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe books, stop the podcast, go and understand how funny we are.
Jasper: Because we already already pretty funny really good work. Oh, yeah, I think also my award should be presented by two beavers as well, that, I think that would - [Eric and Jasper laugh]
Eric: Unfortunately, that does not count as your game that's giving you feelings, Jasper, you have to talk about a game, we're gonna get to that. But to your original point. I mean, we wouldn't be doing this even if we weren't recording like that. Now you need like an excuse, like just schedule doing this. You're a full time content creator! Like you are working at the BBC. And we were like working here, I know that like in America, the UK times you were doing this after work. But as I said, like I'm getting your full attention instead of making sure that you're balancing...
Jasper: I haven't jumped off of like a full work day a bit frazzled and like oh, what is happening which way is up? Like I took a couple hours off before this because I'm working this evening. I can you know what I mean? It's very, very nice. Yeah, it was it was a, it was a lovely, a lovely big jump. I've been self employed before but obviously the Panini happens and therefore I was like "I'm gonna just stick to a full time job for a bit and get my feet under me." But yeah, like you know, had the, had Big Bad Con over in San Francisco and some other really cool things happen and I was just like "Do you know what, now feels like a good time." And honestly, it's been incredible. Like I was worried for a bit but I've been doing this for like two months and I am up to my earholes in work, which is which is really really nice. So and I think what's exciting is just thinking about next year and being like hey, what do I really want to do next year what's my goals and actually getting to set those out? I feel very privileged to be able to do that and I'm, I'm just stoked. I get to do stuff like this which is just I love it.
Eric: Yeah, absolutely. So it's wonderful you get to be here though much like your job at the BBC will we will be considering whether this is good for the queen while we're recording. So you're gonna make sure to balance that.
Jasper: Yeah, of course of course.
Eric: Like are we are we making sure that this is educational for the British audience?
Jasper: Of course yeah, I will absolutely be making sure this is educational to the British audience. And all I can say is just don't show Charles, because he'll probably -
Eric: No, King Charles will not show up on this podcast.
Jasper: Let's see if we can somehow get that Harry approval track. I think if we can get this by via Harry and Megan I think we'll be okay. I worry about trying to get this through Charles or Will.
Eric: Oh, well, hey, now that Megan's a podcaster we have a real shot.
Jasper: We got a chance we got a real chance honestly.
Eric: We can go on Archetypes, that will be huge for us.
Jasper: [Laughs] Love it I'd actually love it.
Eric: It's Oprah, and then it's us, then it's Lifestyle Tyler Perry right after.
Jasper: Then Jordan Peele also!
Eric: I said this to Jasper before but like, hey, now that I've watched the crown, I know what it's like to be British. So I'm really...
Jasper: You have a full understanding, because like, the thing that people don't understand is the Royals experience of life is exactly like every single British person's experience of life. There is no - in the same way that I imagine that like I don't know, like Dolly Parton's life is the life of the average American. You know what I mean? Just like grow up on a farm, get good at music, live the American dream, become a huge sensation. That's like the way every American lives right? It's the same in England. It's just that you don't grow up in a farm you just born into that talent, and by talent, I mean, born into that huge bank account full of money, you know?
Eric: [Laughs] No, that makes sense.
Jasper: Which is given to you by some arbitrary thing, but because apparently like couple 100 years ago, someone said that God chose them. That's basically, that's what we're, that's what we're looking at. Yeah.
Eric: I watched, I watched Dolly Parton's Christmas special. And I know that the Queen and Dolly Parton both have a magical coat of many colors that has brought her to this moment. So it's all, it's exactly the same.
Jasper: It's exactly the same.
Eric: Okay, see this is what happens. This is good. All right. Let's go to our first segment, which is games that are giving us feelings again, this is not about like, you can go to any of your video game podcasts or Dungeons and Dragons podcasts about what's going gone into the various spaces for news. But these are games that we have been playing recently that have been giving us feelings. Jasper, can you tell us the game that's been giving you feelings? And much like Live Journal, can you assign an adjective to it? So everyone knows the feeling that you're associated with it?
Jasper: Yes, I can. I am going to say I've been playing Detroit: Becoming Human. This is -
Eric: Oh, wow.
Jasper: Yeah, it's like a, it's an, it's a not a recent game. It is a game that was free on the PlayStation Network. And so I was like, I've seen a lot of stuff about this. And was like, kind of interested. And so I was like, I'm gonna get this look, I'm gonna get this go. And also, part of the reason it's give me feelings is because I'm partly playing with my fiance. It's quite nice, because it's like a very different kind of game to get like, she's like, not really a gamer. And she kind of like, understands this. It's almost like a movie as opposed to, like, a classic video game. And what it's like, it is giving me - what feeling is it - giving me like, emotional conflicts.
Eric: Yeah, I was wondering if you're gonna get it. Yes, please tell people about this game. And why it's giving you this feeling.
Jasper: So like, it's, I think, like, legitimately, I love the kind of premise and concept of it. I think that for the most part, like performances, and stuff like this are absolutely impeccable. Like, I feel like I'm watching just like a legitimately great movie at times, just like some top notch acting some, like really thought out stuff. And like, generally, they do a good job. Within the mechanics. I personally like indices, keeping it interesting, keeping it fun, in terms of like, the actual kind of playing like having the controller in your hand and doing all of that stuff. There's some seriously weird and like, kind of icky approaches to certain topics within the game. Which, which is really weird. Okay, so this is, this is one of the reasons why I brought this up. Because I was actually having this conversation with a friend of mine. We were having a drink in a pub, and I said, I was playing it. And he was like, Oh, that games super racist. So I was like, Whaaaaaat? And it was really weird, because as a person of color to come to that game, and then have like, your white friend tell you it's racist. And I was like, Okay, let's unpack this and, do you know what I mean? And I've got to be honest, what was really, really interesting for me is like a genuine, I've got to be true to like me and my experience. I genuinely didn't get this on like the first read, if that makes sense. Because it felt separate in the sense that it felt like, like subjugation, or it felt like - you know what I mean? It felt, it didn't feel like the same issue that racism the same box that racism is in, if that makes sense. Like, I felt like it's very close, for sure. But it didn't feel like the same box. It didn't give me that same ick that I would get when something. I'm like, Oh, this feels like this is coming at me, or - do you know what I mean? And so I didn't get that. But that doesn't mean I didn't get kind of an ick from it. Do you know what I mean? It was like there was still like some ways -
Eric: A different, a different ick.
Jasper: Yeah, exactly. And so I kind of read all into it all the same things my friend had, it's just I hadn't read into it like that. I hadn't read that into it. But what I think, did think was really interesting is that I think that I'm probably assigning a lot of credit to a creator who haven't done research, probably doesn't necessary - It's like, okay, maybe that was not, that was slightly misplaced. On his credit, I was laying at the door vaguely, oh, they played into the list intentionally that, like, maybe they didn't. But what I will say is that I think that removed from that context, I genuinely have been finding it a very compelling game that's been making me really like think about stuff. And even if I do think things are a bit hamfisted, at times, it's still engaging me on a level that's making me think, that's making me kind of like, really consider what I would do in this situation, how I would act, it's given me enough choices to make me feel the consequences of my actions, and things like that? And yeah, it's given me some, it's given me some strong feelings like I've, I've really enjoyed the way that it tells a story and the fact that I feel like I'm making spur of the moment decisions that are having huge ramifications for the story and stuff like that. And I'm... for that reason, you know, I'm enjoying it. I definitely find it's a hard one to recommend for a lot of reasons that I've already outlined. But like, I think if, if it's like, if it's something that you personally feel like you can, you know, handle in a video game, then I would recommend it.
Eric: Yes. I want to say one thing and then want to ask you a question about this.
Jasper: Yeah yeah, please.
Eric: It's extra funny, because the director of this game, his name was David Cage.
Jasper: Yes.
Eric: He is a French video game designer. He also like took the name. That's not his real name. That's his pseudonym that he uses in games.
Jasper: Okay.
Eric: He took the name of the guy who created that, that piece of music that's just silence. So he's a very pretentious person. On top of being French!
Jasper: Yes! This is what I mean. I definitely felt like I got this vibe from doing some research on this dude. [Laughs]
Eric: Yeah, and especially like him as a French person, going to Detroit, and then also saying, "Hey, we're gonna go tell a Detroit story plus a robot story." Yeah, like this is, again, I'm only seeing this from the outside. I guess the hamfisted is very true. There was a really funny thing I saw that, like, they went to Detroit to look at it while they were making it. And I'm like, Oh, this is so weird this is happening!
Jasper: Yeaaaah, like -
Eric: It's a real like someone. And you know, this happens, like people from Europe being like, oh, yeah, we're gonna tell that fucking black American story, which is so, so odd....
Jasper: [Laughs] Yeah! That was another caveat I was gonna have as well as like the fact that I definitely don't have like an African American experience as well, which I think it's definitely, maybe it feels more analogous as someone who's grown up as a black person in America, as opposed to a black person in England. So that's like a big caveat as to why maybe I didn't pick up some damage and stuff like that.
Eric: This is, I'm sorry, this is just a second sentence of the of the second paragraph of the Wikipedia for Detroit: Become Human.
Jasper: Give it to me, give it.
Eric: To research this setting, the developers visited Detroit, Michigan, period.
Jasper: They had to specify that! Like, Come on, do we do we not know what bare minimum is anymore? Like have we got I think we've missed the boat on bare minimum, like, people have been getting away with such low standards for a while that the bare minimum is like somehow exceptional now, like, you're making a game set in Detroit called Detroit. And like, you have to specify that you went there once? Like yeah-duh! I should hope you lived there for like six months, like minimum, like come on! You're getting paid by like a huge, like, you know, developer or whatever, to make a triple A game like this is wild.
Eric: Here's another thing I just found is that there was a manga spin off of Detroit: Become Human.
Jasper: Uh oh.
Eric: That was set in Tokyo, for some reason. I don't know.
Jasper: Of course. It's a manga, it's a manga, that's why.
Eric: Because yeah, it's like, oh, robots will jam that in there.
Jasper: Yeah, one thing I will say, though, and this is not me necessarily defending David Cage. This is more me deflecting some of the blame from him onto the studio itself, which has to be like, Look, if you have this game with this premise. Why do you have this guy in to direct it? Like, why do you have a French guy called David Cage? I mean, like, it's just like, there's so much about this, that I go, why have him, you know what I mean? And that's on the studio, like, as far as I'm concerned, David Cage is going to make what David Cage is going to make, like, whether you agree, or you like it or not, whatever, but that's why you're the one that's choosing to make him the director of this game. You know what I mean? Like, you could have gone to Detroit found a talented game, you know, creator, whatever, and made them the director of this game.
Eric: It's like, it's the other way around, though. It's like, [French Accent] "Oh, David Cage, what do you want? What do you want to make?" Because I don't know who owns Ubisoft, I'm just assuming. But it's like, [French accent] "Oh, I want to do robots. And the droids -" like, it's like, you don't take the idea. And then go and find who's best with video games. You take the guy, and then he makes whatever the fuck he wants. But I guess like -
Jasper: Oooooh. There's the issue.
Eric: I also want to clarify, he probably named himself after John Cage, who made "4:33, which is just four minutes and 33 seconds of silence. He was like a very famous experimental musician. Very cool. John Cage, very cool. David Cage, French.
Jasper: [Laughs] [French Accent] "Look, because the thing is, you are coming at me because I am French. But the thing is, the sound of silence is beautiful. So I'm going to make robots in America. And I'm going to pick random states - there! Detroit."
Eric: [French Accent] "The choices that you make will be have to show about your morality, and you cannot teach it."
Jasper: Yeah, so I thought it'd be a hot topic, honestly. A good juicy, hot topic. It's just, uh, but I think it's also I think, what what I really enjoyed about it, probably where the feelings really came from. It's just like, man, it's so funny. How if you remove context, like you know, if you don't have the online clamor around something, you know what I mean? And you just come into it cold.
Eric: Yeah, this game came out in 2018. Right? If you don't, if you weren't, like I only know this through cultural osmosis from listening to video game podcasts and knowing about it, I've never played this game.
Jasper: Well the thing is I only know this because I did some acting classes with the guy who plays the main androids like the detective.
Eric: Oh, hell yeah!
Jasper: And like I kind of like did some classes with him and he was just like a super nice dude and always spoke about the experience of working on the game really positively. And so like I only had positive you know what I mean kind of associations with this game. And I think yeah, probably gave it a very favorable read. But you know, it they gave me was I thought was okay. Oh, that was pretty good. I enjoyed it and hey it got, it got Jade's playing video games, which I'll take that.
Eric: There you go. How far are you in the game? Or does that even mean anything in this particular type of game?
Jasper: Yes, I think it does. We're like quite far but like close to the end I think I thought we'd got to the end and then like the story continued. So that could also be a precursor to we're nowhere near the end and the story, this game is long as balls. That's also very possible but I get the impression that we're kind of like close ish to the end. I don't know where we could go - like the only place we can go beyond where I'm currently at is like outside of Detroit. So I feel like we're already asking, two of the characters are already outside of Detroit so, like - [Eric laughs] So we're not even like we're not even really doing Detroit and like we gotta get away from Detroit as it is. It's becoming more of a global thing. So, you know...
Eric: I didn't know that the goal of the game was get out -
Jasper: Get out of Detroit! Right
Eric: One, step one become human, two, leave Detroit.
Jasper: Right. No, that's the second one, is Detroit leaving Detroit.
Eric: Detroit colon becoming someone who lives outside of Detroit.
Jasper: Detroit colon pack your bags.
Eric: That's incredibly funny. Let's see. All right, for my game that is giving me feelings. Mine's a quick one. I'm going to talk about dreidel for a second.
Jasper: Drei-del!
Eric: Dreidel, we are coming off of Hanukkah, which is happening when right now when we're recording this. And did you know, next year 2023, Hanukkah is going to go into January?
Jasper: Whoa!
Eric: Which is so weird.
Jasper: Yeah, that must mess with like all kinds of head calendars. Just like that shouldn't be - what?
Eric: Yeah, the Jewish calendar is lunar. So it switches like that. And like every - oh god, I'm gonna get this wrong, like every eight or 13 years, there's a leap month. So it's really, really wild.
Jasper: Whoa! Whoa!
Eric: So this is like a little while ago, Hanukkah and - I know - Hannukah and Thanksgiving were over the same time as well. So I wonder if it's like we're getting on the far this side of the pendulum here. And now it's gonna get reset once the, the, Eloel Two happens.
Jasper: Whoa. I'm kind of imagining it like, you know, like the like the beads where you kind of like swing all the beads at the same time. And then they kind of form different patterns. It's kind of like that. I feel like we're getting to like a very specific pattern that only lasts for like, a second and you're like, Whoa! what has happened and then it's gone. You know what I mean?
Eric: Yeah. So yeah, I've just been thinking about dreidel a little bit especially like, knowing that like a d4 is the same as a dreidel and I just think tops are cool. I don't know like, I, seeing dreidel is really simple. You spin -
Jasper: Is this? Is this like the spinny tops that I've -
Eric: Yeah. And it has four Hebrew letters on them, which signifies different things that you do, which is either you, you take gelt, which are those golden wrapped chocolate candies, and you have like a big pot of them. And you can either, you either get nothing, you get half the pot, you get the whole pot, or you gotta give half of your stuff into the pot. And it's just an excuse just to play stuff, and for kids to just like get some chocolate right?
Jasper: Eeey! Okay.
Eric: It's kind of funny like expressing the story of Hanukkah, because the letters on the top represent Hebrew words that mean a great miracle happened here, which is the Hanukkah story.
Jasper: Right.
Eric: The one night of oil turning into eight nights of oil, which is why we like eight candles. So it's kind of cool. I just like, like a story being expressed through a game, which is something we do like the other way is like we use a game to tell a story. But something about like memorializing an event through a game. It's kind of interesting. Like the whole thing. Like how "Ring around the rosie" is supposed to be about the Black Death.
Jasper: The plague, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eric: Yeah, it's one of those weird things, just the way that humans like, do stuff to remember things I just find really interesting. And also, like, Hannukah gelt is dope!
Jasper: Yeah. I mean, yeah, it sounds like a great game. I mean, chocolate, let's go. For me, I wonder whether it is down to the fact that there is just like, a higher level of interactivity, and therefore, like engagement, you know, it's less passive. And it's like for, you know, big, like meaningful events like this. It feels somehow, like, just a story isn't enough. You know what I mean? Like, just kind of passing the story down, isn't enough. It's like, the Black Death was such a big deal. It was like, "Okay, we need to make sure that like we come up with a simple, like rhyme that is going to live forever, that no one will ever forget that this truly horrific thing happened." You know what I mean? And it's absolutely proven, you know, like, I definitely think it's like added engagement. I think you increases longevity of a story.
Eric: Absolutely. And I think that there's other stuff on top of it where it's like, yeah, I do like rolling dice. It is - I have such an interesting connection of dice. It's like, Yeah, I like doing this. I like spinning a top that tells me something. But it also feels like it's odd thinking about sociology and like humans in this way, you know, speaking of video games in a, in a very like, detailed, intricate one like Detroit Become Human is like, we always talk about like those signifiers of like environmental storytelling. Like, here's how you you have you place things in video games that people interact with says something about, like, the fantasy society or the Sci Fi society that they're creating. It's like, oh, they play this, because it shows this, or it's like, Oh, this got painted on the wall because it showed the fight back of the zombies and how we came back on it. But now if you're looking at, if you look at dreidel, it's like, oh, yeah, this is like someone would put some this in a story to be like, oh, yeah, the kids are playing this story to remember this, like miracle that we now use and how it, and now how like Hanukkah slots into Christmas. I don't know it's like a kind of an interesting thing and thinking about it like this was a creative exercise. Like a world building exercise is like oh, I, is really satisfying. And just like understanding and thinking about it. I've just been kind of like, turning it over my head a little bit. And it's, it's -
Jasper: Yeah.
Eric: It's cool. Like games or games or real games mean things to humans. You know?
Jasper: Games are real and super important, yeah, I completely agree.
[Segment Transition Music]
Eric: Hey, it's Eric. And I picked up some snacks for Games and Feelings. I have Tim Tams everyone's favorite Australian cookie. Tim Tam Slam. Australians did I get that right? Tim Tam Slam. That's good stuff.
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[Chiptune Chirp]
Eric: All right, well, you want to answer some some questions and help some people?
Jasper: I would love to.
Eric: Hell yeah, dude.
Jasper: I can't promise my advisor is gonna be any good.
Eric: No, that's fine.
Jasper: My advice will be very... I'll be very outspoken in my advice, and I will be - I will stick by it. Like, even when people start writing in and saying Jasper, your advice is terrible. Like I keep dying or this keeps going wrong. I'll be like, I - that's fine. Keep going. Trust the process. That's going to be my tagline: trust the process.
Eric: That's good. No one has ever said that. Especially not very popular basketball people.
Jasper: Oh, it's fine. That's a very popular football thing right now for for my team. Arsenal, we've got a, there's a bit of an -
Eric: Arsenal got it from the Philadelphia 76ers, I'm sure just so you know.
Jasper: Of course yeah. Obviously Of course, like they - I'm sure that the Philadelphia 76 is like this history club with over 100 years of... anyway, don't worry.
Eric: They've been around. They've been around since 1776. They're really important. Ben Franklin started them. It was great. He was alright. [Jasper laughs] So as always, these are real questions from real listeners. You can submit them at gamesandfeelings.com/questions. And as always, we're gonna give people names fun, like advice names, if they didn't write in with specific names. So we got this question. We have a question here which combines two things that you really love Jasper.
Jasper: Ooooh!
Eric: Pokemon, and Dungeons & Dragons.
Jasper: [Gasps] Let's go!
Eric: "Can you use Pokemon-type effectiveness rules in D&D? When do Pokemon rules apply? And when do they not? This came up when my party was fighting Kraken tentacles. And our DM said Pokemon rules don't work because they're otherworldly beings. But I simply cannot see the world not in Pokemon rules. You got to punch to the dark, you know?" Because fighting -
Jasper: Fighting versus ghost, yeah. Is it ghosts and dark? Or is it just dark?
Eric: It's just dark, because you can't punch a ghost.
Jasper: You can't - oh, that's it, you can't punch ghosts. Sorry, er okay, we can see, you know, that's gone well for me in the past.
Eric: You also can't punch birds, which is why fighting is bad against flying.
Jasper: Right. Can't punch birds -
Eric: They'll fly away.
Jasper: It's a well known fact, you can't punch birds.
Eric: Yeah, and this is from "I want to roleplay the very best" pronouns she/her.
Jasper: Okay, "I want to roleplay the very best." This is a really interesting question. Okay, it's first of all, I would say if you and your table are down, enter this agreement when you start playing and go for it, because I think it would be super fun. However, however, I will say I do think this probably breaks the mechanics to a fundamental level to introduce, like if you effectively make any thing that is what would be super deemed super effective in Pokemon terms, a like crit in D&D, right? You guys know only the bad guys, one thing you guys are gonna get fucked up badly. Like, it's gonna be over quick! Because there are some bad guys that are going to have some damage and it is going to suck because, I mean, if you're playing like, you're probably all gonna fit into like a fighting class. You know what I mean? Unless you're, if you're anything martial, you're fighting. So there's gonna be a handful of things that are gonna be able to wipe the floor with you there. You know, and then if you're a warlock, you're dark. Okay, cool. Like I think there's a lot of things - I think what I'm saying I think is a net negative for players. Like generally, I think that DMs will be generous enough to allow some of these shenanigans to pass from the players to the monsters you know what I mean, like I will say, if I have an entity that is made out of pure darkness, and my paladin is coming in with like a third level smite I might let them use a crit or whatever you want. I mean, just because like yeah, look, you're bringing pure radiance. This thing is made of darkness it's going to be super effective. Go ahead and roll twice or something, do you know what I mean?
Eric: That stuff is usually in the stat block.
Jasper: Exactly! And then a lot of the time -
Eric: To the point I want to answer the question but there's a meta question under here that I want to get to, because you're saying the true thing is like, the answer is no, Pokemon and Dungeons and Dragons, you can't just throw one on top of the other.
Jasper: [Laughing] The answer is no.
Eric: Right? However, a lot of this stuff is inside the statblock already, a lot of demons and devils and ghosts and stuff are going to get double damage from radiance, I can think of like scarecrows, and specifically which are - scarecrows are one of my favorite monsters how like, they turn into the scarecrows if you're not looking at them and they they move but like obviously they're double damage to fire because they're just made of straw and there are like building damage moves specifically like there are some earthquake moves that are like that or sometimes like trebuchet moves.
Jasper: Oh yeah, I think it's like everything considered, any monster considered huge, I believe comes it's like it's like it will list on there saying it's like a siege beast, which just means basically it does double damage to buildings. Like if it's a building, it messes it up. [Laughs]
Eric: But, but to the, the question asker has a really interesting sentence here. Their DM said it wouldn't work because they're otherworldly beings. DMs, hey man, just say no.
Jasper: Yeah! Yeah yeah.
Eric: Don't give answers like this. Because then you're gonna get this question.
Jasper: Okay. You done messed up here, DM. You done messed up. Let me tell you how - you left the door open. [Eric laughs] Okay, you left the door open and someone walked into your dang house. Okay? You left the door because you said - no, no, no no, 'because'! No no no no, don't say 'because,' as soon as you say because your players will already have some BS locked and loaded ready to come straight back at you with. Do not leave the door open, just say no, it's okay. And if a players fight back just play "hey look, this is my world." You know if you're gonna - if you, if you feel like you need to explain it make it so vague and deep lore that there's nothing they could possibly come back with. Say to them "This is from a world beyond your comprehension. You have no idea what this thing, this being is made up of. And tell you what if you roll me a natural 20 on a nature check. I might tell you what it is." And if they land that nat 20, be like it's stardust. What's what's good again, startup your domain these beings of pure like that formed from dark matter that holds all universe together. Yeah.
Eric: This serves to touch on like, what I think people miss from the conversation about like, should I be playing Dungeons and Dragons or any other game? It's like, these things are underpinned with real mechanics. The main thing about Dungeons and Dragons is how you do will damage to others. So unless if specifically about d&d about like, I want to do something that does this amount of damage to another thing is does this do double damage? The answer is no. Because it's already written the way that it's written like this is literally the bones of this, of this game.
Jasper: You've actually - I've, you've made me think something as well flip the table on this. And imagine how buck wild Pokemon would be if you had Dungeons and Dragons level rules. But in Pokemon. Like if you knew that you - you had a Charizard, right? And you knew there was a bunch of just grass type Pokemon just hanging out in the woods. You just set fire to all the trees. So - you know what I mean? Like just, if you could be and then what happens? Like just all of the Pokemon have fainted in the woods, and you can go out collecting them all. Like, that's the reason why there are these fundamental core like rules. And there are like rules of engagement in Pokemon for a reason. Because if you just go out and do whatever you wanted, the world would fall apart, they would not work well. [Laughs]
Eric: Also, you would have a way worse crit chance in the first place, because you can - it's only 5% in Dungeons and Dragons, but it's much higher than that in the Pokemon series, depending on other stuff that you do. Yeah, there's a lot of math involved in it. I'm trying to understand it by looking at it right now. It's too complicated. You have a better chance to crit in the Pokemon world. Yes! To this point. If you want to do something that's squishier, like in role playing like exactly what Jasper is saying, it's like, alright, well, I want to send electricity through the sea, because then it will, it will might hit the Kraken and but then it will hit everything. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, then you can negotiate that because again, we're playing a role playing game. Yeah, it is squishier. But like, you can't just put one on the other. But Jasper, I guess my question about this is like, how do you feel about like homebrew that fundamentally changes what game you're playing? Like, have you ever gotten into a Dungeon & Dragons game and then someone's like, "Oh, we're gonna use like the Success of a Power by the Apocalypse thing." Where - and I'm like, because to me, I'm like, then can we get just go play Masks? Let's go play another game.
Jasper: Okay, so I'm gonna actually, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be the counterpoint, I think, to this, to this one.
Eric: Please.
Jasper: Purely because I - I very much grew up feeling like I was on the outside, all of my friends were like, into like Warhammer, but to like a degree that I felt like I could never be that into it. Or they were into World of Warcraft, but to the degree to which I could never be into it. And then I got into YuGiOh to a degree in which no one else could get into it, right? Like I would destroy everyone hands down. And then I remember, I basically made my own version of Warhammer with YuGiOh, like with the with the creatures and the characters from YuGiOh. And the reason that I did that was because the creative freedom that allowed me to take something that I knew, like the back of my hand, meant that I fundamentally created a more pleasurable experience for me. So whilst I completely agree, and I think that this argument gets a little bit messy with Dungeons & Dragons specifically, purely because I'm like you, I would love to go and support other creators and kind of spread the word about other amazing games. And so like, I'm all for that, specifically, I definitely want that. But from like an accessibility point of view, and from a kind of just like your own kind of like psyche and well being like learning a new game, like learning new games can be tough and overwhelming. And sometimes like that familiarity is what really can set you free in a creative sense. And so like, I really enjoy adapting, like 5E, for instance, to like fit other things -
Eric: Sure.
Jasper: There's a whole other conversation to go into around like content creation, that's like a whole other thing where we gotta talk about popularity and yadadada. But I'd say like in terms of just like, normal people who want to play like a version of you know, something, like, for instance, like, me and Jade will often like adapt the rules of Risk to make it more like challenging and fun. Instead of like getting a different war game, right?
Eric: Sure.
Jasper: And like, I completely understand why we should go out and just get another war game. But it's like, it's Tuesday evening, at like, eight o'clock, we just want to play a game, we know Risk. And we know, we can tweak three things and we'll get the desired result. And we'll have a great time. And so like I don't, I'm not like gonna rail against anyone who's like, you know, I want to adapt this thing that I love and make it into something that like really suits me. I think it's different if you're like, hey, we're just gonna do, I know what I want to do guys D&D, but like, I don't really like combat, and I want it to be like really wholesome and sweet. And I really want it to be like about these cutesy, little animals. And I really want them to just like, you know, wander around looking for a home. I'd be like, okay, look, just play this book. It's called Wanderhome, just go play this. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's a difference.
Eric: It's that thing, though, that I think is the line, right? Honestly -
Jasper: Yeah.
Eric: The kaizo like, Nuzlocke Risk that you're playing is awesome. It sounds great. But like there's there's some fundamental things about his that different games, I'm realizing there are two things that once you change them, you're not playing the same game. One, if you're not telling the story that the game is set up for, for our tabletop RPGs, then you're having an issue. For example, Dungeons and Dragons is used to tell a story that is one, epic, and two, has violence, right?
Jasper: Sure.
Eric: I think on some level, it's like, you can be playing a palace injury game, or something that's more of a thriller, but ultimately, someone's going to get got at some point. So you're not doing that you should play a different game that will facilitate the type of story you want to tell. And the second is there are some, like fundamental underpinnings of the type of game that you're playing. For example, could you play Dungeons and Dragons? If you're like, No, we're gonna use a d10, or d6 instead, we're gonna roll 2d6 instead, because I don't like physical layout of a d20. No, you can't! Then, I don't, then, then you've done too much work to go away from it. There are so much you can change. But I feel like right at the core is things you can't change. And I think this thing that we're talking about how damage works is so essential to Dungeons and Dragons that like we might as well be playing something, we might as well be playing something else. Because like, I don't, then you shouldn't be counting down HP. We shouldn't be doing like glows or, or, or it should be a little more narrative in the way that other games have narrative combat instead.
Jasper: I definitely get, take your point about like, messing with the fundamental framework of the game feels like detracting, do you know what I mean? Whereas like, I think for me, the way I'd approach homebrew and stuff like this is I'm always thinking about, like, what's a layer that I can add on to this that I find makes it more enriching an experience for me? Like, I don't think that I've ever homebrewed something to like, take something away. Unless I'm just like, yeah, it's just like a dumb rule. I'll just, like throw that one out, or whatever. That's like, everyone does that. But like, generally, Yeah, I agree with you. Like if it's, if it's gonna really mess with like, the core tenets of the the game itself, I'd be like, yeah, it's probably best just to find another game in that respect. Or just make your own game or whatever. And, you know, to hell with balancing it. It's fine. You're you're playing it on your own. You can board with your friends, you can make it up.
Eric: Just do whatever you want.
Jasper: Do whatever you want! Yeah, just do whatever you want, it's fine.
Eric: Hell yeah. Wonderful. All right. Well, thanks, I -
Jasper: That's a good question. That was a really good question that a lot of very interesting to think about if Pokemon rules existed in D&D, it would be the wild west -
Eric: It would be so messed up!
Jasper: DMs would be pulling their hair out, being like, "I can't balance a thing!"
Eric: I know people playing Pokemon inspired Dungeons and Dragons games, and it does work. Like you can apply. This is just like, you can't just say, well in Pokemon, ice is the freeze. Water is good against ground. So I'm gonna kill this golem using some water weird I throw at it. Like, you can't just say that. [Laughs] I think it is, I think it is quite funny.
Jasper: It's very funny.
Eric: Cool. Jasper, we have plenty more questions to get to. And we are going to answer them because you're going to be here answering all these questions all the time.
Jasper: Yeah.
Eric: But I have one question from the internet that I want to ask you about, sometimes I take questions from out there on the internet that isn't sent in by you folks that I think might be good. And for this one, I want to talk about sports really quickly.
Jasper: Yes, sports!
Eric: Jasper, you're currently wearing an Arsenal jersey, so football, soccer jersey. So this is perfect. This one is specifically about basketball. But I think this does touch on some things. Because the World Cup has just happened recently.
Jasper: It has!
Eric: I think that there is some things about figuring out who the goat is and why people get so, so dug-in to why things are the goat. Okay, so this is from r/ChicagoBulls on Reddit. This is the subreddit for the basketball team, the Chicago Bulls, okay. Which is extra funny, because this isn't even from advice, an advice subreddit. This is also funny because the user who submitted this his name is Tottenham Hotspurs with three S's at the end, he was like, why are you - how do you like both of these things so much?
Jasper: Wild. Absolutely wild.
Eric: His name is the name of a popular soccer team in the UK.
Jasper: They suck. Just remember that. They're terrible and they're also the closest rival of Arsenal, just in case anyone was wondering why I'm so vehemently against them for no reason.
Eric: [Laughs] Alright, so the question here is "my girlfriend's dad is from Cleveland. And every time he sees me, he wants to have a Michael Jordan and LeBron debate." That's the title.
Jasper: Okay.
Eric: Okay. The - all you need to know if you don't know about basketball, Michael Jordan was the, was -
Jasper: Bulls.
Eric: - and probably is the greatest basketball player of all time. With the Chicago Bulls. And LeBron is currently playing in the NBA. He's like the modern best player of all time. There's a constant debate about who is better.
Jasper: Yeah, pretty sure the Lakers would like 0 and 5 at the start of the season, right? They like sucked at the beginning of the season.
Eric: He's on the Lakers. Now he was on, he was, he's from Ohio. He won championships for Cleveland.
Jasper: Oh, yeah. Oh, no, no, I know. I know. LeBron is like legit. I'm just saying I've just I remember seeing some stuff about the NBA earlier this year and being like, what's happened to the Lakers?
Eric: Oh, yeah.
Jasper: Like the Lakers seem to be falling apart.
Eric: The Lakers are so bad. LeBron has been playing the league for 20 years. He's an old man. Yeah, the point is, that's all the context -
Jasper: And a very big old man. Very important to say
Eric: - Yeah. I think he's a large, incredibly talented and very athletic. Powerful old man. Okay, "it is getting annoying. And one time I told him LeBron is definitely top five. But nowhere close to MJ. He got aggressive and I feel like he hates me ever since. [Jasper cackles] He's a huge Cavs fan, and treats LeBron as the city's savior. It's just a weird experience. Can someone give advice? I don't know where to post. He's been living here in Chicago for like 20 years. I don't know why he surprised that we think that MJ is the goat."
Jasper: Okay, so first of all, I gotta say I take it back. Your name sucks. But I love the pettiness. I love the fact that you came in on fire to your step dad and you were like, "look, he's in the top five." Like you knew full well that was gonna piss him off. And I love the fact that you came in with that. So first of all, take some props for me for going in with a very factual statement that you knew was gonna piss him off, because if he'd have come in and said MJ was in the top five, you'd have been furious.
Eric: It's pretty, like he didn't even say top two.
Jasper: Yes! I mean, that's what I'm talking about.
Eric: I thought he was trying to be conciliatory. But he's not. And also Jasper, you said stepdad? I just want to clarify, this is his girlfriend's dad.
Jasper: Oh, sorry, girlfriend's dad. Okay, right. Yeah.
Eric: Well, that's why it's just a little bit more, because you can say whatever the fuck you want to Gary. But not to your girlfriend's dad!
Jasper: Yeah, he's already locked in. He can't do nothing. He can't do nothing. Whereas girlfriend's dad that's that's that's risky territory for sure. He's still got some influence in this in this debate that's happening,
Eric: Exactly, if it's a stepdad, it's like Rorschach, you're not in here with him. He's in here with you. The other way it's very precarious. So this guy, Tottenham Hotspurs, he doesn't know what to do. This guy has been living in Chicago for 20 years. So maybe he's like extra entrenched that like he needs to tell everyone in Chicago that LeBron is better than Michael Jordan. It's, it's really complicated. I just also want to say that none of the responses were helpful. [Jasper laughs] They were all just like, "What the fuck is wrong with him?" So it's like, what are you supposed to do? When someone who is important who you need to get along with? My girlfriend's dad is entrenched in a sports debate. I know for the World Cup. There's currently like Messi vs Mbappé conversations and also with Ronaldo was thrown in there as well. Like this is, this is pan sports. Yeah. What do you do when you're in a sports argument with someone else? Who you need to get along with?
Jasper: Look, I think it's tough because it's an emotional debate. Okay? It's hard when people come at you with the same set of facts, but just see something so entirely differently. I had this so many times where I'm like, how, how have you arrived at this conclusion? What you're saying is nonsense words, like, you have seen that - you'd like, you're looking at the same, you know, goals per game, or, you know, three pointers or whatever it is, whatever the stat metric is, and you're getting a different read to me, how is this happening? And I think one of the interesting ones about this debate is, first of all, I think there's definitely a school of thought, which just like, hey, let them be, very different players, duhduhduh. I do think basketball is different, though. Because basketball, unlike football, I think football has like a real breadth of like positions. You know what I mean? Like soccer has a broad breadth of positions in the sense that like, the world's greatest defender is like a million miles away from what the world's greatest attacker is like. So you really can kind of say, like, "yeah, they're not really like, comparable in that way. Like their stats and metrics are so different." Whereas, like, on a basketball, like, you know, unless you're like Scottie Pippen, or whatever, like you've got a job, you know what I mean? You got a job to do in there. Like, it's very different to everyone, like, ultimately, like, you got to score the baskets, like that's the key here, we've got to score the baskets. So there's one direction you go, but there's another direction I would go with, I'm not a big enough man to do that. You could just go "hey, look, I gotta be honest, LeBron, you've rolled my eyes. LeBron is an incredible player, absolutely incredible player. And I would definitely say that he deserves to be, you know, right up there with Michael Jordan as the greatest of all time."
Eric: Yeah.
Jasper: And just see how he responds to that. Like, if he's willing to be like, okay, like, that's, that's as far as I will ever go. Like, in this debate, when I fundamentally don't agree the files, so we'll go is I'll allow them to sit next to each other. Now, what I'd actually do is I'd probably get into like, Okay, let's look at like the teams that they were in.
Eric: [Laughing] Oh no.
Jasper: I think that's what I mean, that's, I think that's where you get, that's where it gets tricky, right? Because you got us like, but I think that's an important one. I think that's a very, very important one where you like, you got to look at the talent pools and these teams and be like, Okay, who's, who's carrying which team here? You know what I mean?
Eric: I would say, Listen, I would say that LeBron had worse to play with -
Jasper: Well, this is what I was gonna say!
Eric: In a better team, a better league. So I - it's complicated. Yeah, I guess you can. The thing is, I like what you just said is like, Hey, we're talking about two of the best players, the two best players who've ever played and touched a basketball. Yeah, we're never going to debate this. I think saying that LeBron - Maybe he thinks LeBron is like top is like number four, because he's an insane man on Reddit. So so like, he might not be able to do this.
Jasper: This guy fully thinks that LeBron is like fifth in the world.
Eric: Yeah, he probably thinks Kobe Bryant's better. It's so fucked up.
Jasper: But he doesn't think he's top two. Otherwise I think this problem would have been resolved because I think they would have been able to my first solution, which, which doesn't seem to have worked.
Eric: I think that this guy has a really interesting opportunity to win points with his girlfriend by just fucking dropping this. I'm sure she gets this.
Jasper: Yeah.
Eric: And if he and have you just regardless of whether or not girlfriend's dad receives this, if you make an effort to be like, Can we not do this anymore? by just saying, Hey -
Jasper: I'm gonna ask this guy to choose between love and the truth. [Laughs]
Eric: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Jasper: Choose between your love your girlfriend and the truth of the marriage, which is the Michael Jordan was a better basketball player than LeBron James.
Eric: Yeah, like, what are you supposed to do? And also no one's gonna call you on it, your boys aren't gonna get in your fucking group chat be like, "Yo, you just told Denise's dad fucking MJ sucks. You're out of the friend group." Like they're not going to know!
Jasper: [Laughs] You immediately get kicked from the Watsapp. The second you utter it. They are all outside the window just like "Oh, Hmm, what? What did you just say? What did you just say? Matt?"
Eric: Was it worth it for Denise was it - well, she doesn't care about your feelings.
Jasper: Like Michael Jordan turns up at your house and goes "I hope Denise was worth it." Just like steals the MJ jersey off your back.
Eric: Yeah. And he's weird like Hitler-ish moustache that he had ten years ago, yeah.
Jasper: Like, massive weird fingers kind of wrap around your whole shirt and torso and just sort of throw you.
Eric: Yeah, he dunks he dumps you into the trashcan.
Jasper: And he's like, "you could stay there. I took it personally." Yeah.
Eric: Yeah. I mean, honestly, there are so many worse things to hate someone's dad about. Like, if it's just about basketball. Like, I think you can let this one go.
Jasper: I'm gonna be honest, feel lucky. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of people out there who do not have a single thing to say to a potential stepdad. And it is tough. Like, I've been in situations in the past where it's like I don't know. I got nothing to say here. You know what I mean? Luckily, not now. Like my fiance's dad. Like we can we can do the football chat. Perfect. This is Ace, we'll stick to this is perfect. But like, man, I've had it for the past, like count yourself lucky that you can even have like a debate. You know what I mean with this man, but definitely, probably at some point. Just give it up. Yeah, I think he's also especially tough that they live in Chicago. You know what I mean? It's like, he's like, he's like, I know that 99.99998% of this whole place that we're in will agree with me. And you're the leftover bit just to you.
Eric: Like if this is his personality, you're not going to - not only you're not going to win because he thinks a different thing that you do. He's not going to win because this is his thing.
Jasper: This is his whole thing. This is like if you tried tell me Avatar was a bad movie. I'd be like okay. It's not, but like, [Eric laughs] I mean, like, it's just not gonna happen. Like we'll just we'll just fall out. It's fine. You can't do it. My daughter now you know what I mean? That's yeah,
Eric: I love those blue Pocahontas Guys. There we go.
Jasper: There we go. Don't say Smurf. So I'll stop this recording right now right -
Eric: No I won't besmirch Big Jim on this podcast.
Jasper: You can't call him Big Jim. Big Jim is my lord and savior.
Eric: Well, this is probably why Jasper had 3d glasses on this entire week -
Jasper: Because I just got back from The Way of Water. And I'll be going back for my second screening as soon as this podcast is over.
Eric: The Reweigh of Water.
Jasper: [Laughs] The rewatering.
Eric: Yeah, the rewatering. I - Jasper, I'm so happy that you're here. I'm so happy that we get to do this. And that's it for another episode of Games and Feelings. Guys, we're pleased. Do your first of many plugs. Your second of many plugs.
Jasper: Many plugs! I just want to start by saying that I'm just so stoked to be here. Like it's such a fun conversation. And it is genuinely something that you know, I do think about a lot, you know, the way that we interact with games, this is a fantastic medium, which I think is only going to become more and more prevalent in society as we see, you know, the gaming industry overtaking Hollywood and all these kinds of things. So I think it's an amazing time to be a gamer. I think all of you youngsters out there, you don't know how good you got it. And thinking back about some of the old games I used to play and thinking how I had to fill in so many pixels with my imagination because those games look so bad. So I'm just really excited to reminisce about a lot of those games. And I'm excited to talk about some - sports for sure. And yeah, I'm just very stoked to be here. So thank you all to the audience for this wonderful podcast for having me and I'm excited to be here and if you like me, and if you've liked the my ramblings about nonsense, and spicy takes about people from Detroit and robots, then you can find me on all the social medias @JW_Cartwright. I have another podcast, I have a couple new podcasts which are starting very soon. But I'll go ahead and share the main one which is Three Black Halflings you can find us @3BlackHalflings. And yeah, just keep it on my socials. You'll see all the stuff that I'm doing and I've got coming up. It's a fun old time and yeah, thanks for having me, Eric. I'm excited to be here.
Eric: Of course, so happy to have you. Please find me all over the internet @el_silvero, E L underscore Silvero, my name if I was a lucha libre wrestler. And you can find the show @GamesNFeelings, like Linens n' Things, because we couldn't get the whole thing all over socials. Remember, you can submit questions by going to our website gamesandfeelings.com/questions, and you can support the show at patreon.com/gamesandfeelings where you can listen to the replay and you can see the links in the episode description. We're going weekly, y'all, we will see you next week. Thank you to Jasper and remember the instruction manual doesn't have anything about feelings.
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Eric: Games and Feelings is produced by Eric Silver and edited and mixed by Mischa Stanton. The theme music is "Return to French Toast Castle" by Jeff Bryce, and the art was created by Jessica Boyd. Find transcripts for this episode, and all episodes at our website, gamesandfeelings.com. Until next time, press X to enjoy the podcast.