Big Pokemon Questions with Dr. Moiya McTier
WYFPATISSNAY is back to ask the BIG QUESTIONS of Dr. Moiya McTier (Pale Blue Pod, Exolore, The Milky Way)! Pokemon is just a kids’ game, but how do the traditions, mythos, and Poke-powers relate to real-life humans? And, of course, I’m gonna say something nice about her AND tell her about her new favorite Pokemon.
Follow Eric on TikTok if that’s a place you hang out!
Stuff We Talked About
Sponsor
- PotionSlingers, a strategy card game for 2-4 players! Build your deck from over 150 unique, weird, wild, and colorful cards, all for a super affordable price. Buy your copy at potionslingers.com!
Find Us Online
- ask questions: gamesandfeelings.com/questions
- patreon: patreon.com/gamesandfeelings
- twitter: twitter.com/gamesnfeelings
- insta: instagram.com/gamesnfeelings
Credits
- Host, Producer, & Question Keeper: Eric Silver
- Editor & Mixer: Mischa Stanton
- Music by: Jeff Brice
- Art by: Jessica Boyd
- Multitude: multitude.productions
About Us
Games and Feelings is an advice podcast about being human and loving all types of games: video games, tabletop games, party games, laser tag, escape rooms, game streams, and anything else that we play for fun. Join Question Keeper Eric Silver and a revolving cast of guests as they answer your questions at the intersection of fun and humanity, since, you know, you gotta play games with other people. Whether you need a game recommendation, need to sort out a dispute at the table, or decide whether an activity is good for a date, we’re your instruction manual. New episodes drop every other Friday.
Transcript
[theme song plays]
ERIC: Hello, trainers. It's Poke time! This is What's Your Favorite Pokemon and Then I Say Something Nice About You - #WYFPATISSNAY - but you knew that already. It's self-evident of what the— of what the acronym of the show is. It's WYFPATISSNAY. It's a podcast where we all get to think about Pokemon for a little while, and nothing else. Although, of course, when we're talking about world-building, it's a metaphor for our world. So, we will be—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —thinking about other things. It’s a little bit different in this episode. But I'm Eric Silver, Pokemaster, and I— I like my candies rare, but I went on StockX and I got some ultra rare candies for as much as I pay in rent. This episode, as I said, is a little bit different because we have someone who does not like Pokemon as much as me, but I'm very excited to have her on. It's Dr. Moiya McTier.
MOIYA: Hello! Eric, how many people do like Pokemon as much as you? Because I— I am not anti-Pokemon. I'm a— I'm a fan, but—
ERIC: Okay.
MOIYA: —you are a super, duper, uber fan, I think.
ERIC: There are people who like Pokemon more than me and I'm like, "Wow." I— because the thing is I kind of like the world-building aspect of it. Like, I like—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —how the games fit together. I like the idea of Pokemon and how this, like, incredibly long-running video game has, like, accidentally created some very interesting ideas of this world. Um—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —we're not gonna talk about it, but, Moiya, did you know that there's a video game out there that's going to be Pokemon with guns?
MOIYA: Why do they need guns? They have animals that can shoot electricity or fire out of various parts of their bodies!
ERIC: Exactly. Exactly.
MOIYA: That's just— this genuinely makes no sense to me. This is world-building that follows the structure and timeline of the human world when it doesn't need to, because we have guns and other technology, because that's how we learned how to fight. But if you had Blastoises, you're trying to tell me if you have an Onix or if you have like—
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: Uh, why would you need guns?
ERIC: I know. We wouldn't. It's called Palworld. It's been teased for a while. I'll send it to you later. We were gonna talk about it and I'm like, "There's nothing to talk about. There's really nothing to talk about."
MOIYA: But there's plenty to vent about on that.
ERIC: Yes, true. It's getting too— closer and closer. I don't know if you know, Moiya, but like, this time, the— like, in mid to late June is when all the video game companies start saying all the new stuff that's coming out. This is, like—
MOIYA: Oh.
ERIC: —preview time. So, this— this game, Palworld, has been, like, slowly surfacing and surfacing. We're getting closer and closer to whether or not this is not just an elaborate prank. It's actually a video game. But it's— it's coming, like there's a beta coming very soon and I'm really worried.
MOIYA: Wow.
ERIC: I feel like I'm gonna have to play it just for, uh, WYFPATISSNAY.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Um, if only just to shit on it a little bit.
ERIC: Just to know what the deal is, what's going on.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
ERIC: Uh, Moiya, I'm really happy that you're here because I feel like we're doing like a little bit of a home-and-home about Pokemon. I went on Exolore in January—
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: —28th, 2021 to do—
MOIYA: Wow.
ERIC: I know. It feels like such a long time ago.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: Uh, to talk about the world building in Pokemon. Uh, let me read your episode description back to you. Uh, “Eric Silver joins us to answer my burning questions about the Pokemon world. And together, we discuss the weirdest and world-breaking-est Pokemon.”
MOIYA: We did.
ERIC: That's where we looked it up and it was like, "Yeah, Torkoal's in—inner temperature is, like, hotter than the sun." And we're like, "That's bad. I think that's bad."
MOIYA: That's— that's bad physics, but it's good gaming.
ERIC: Yeah. Yes. Exactly. So, I feel like I came onto Exolore and did Exolore things there. Like, I brought—
MOIYA: Mmmm.
ERIC: —Eric Silver to Exolore, but now Dr. Moiya McTier, scientist and folklorist, is coming to WYFPATISSNAY to kind of talk about the big questions in Pokemon. There are certain—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —things that have come up a lot, especially when, like, Mischa and I start talking about the religiosity involved in Pokemon and, like, how Japan reflects that upon like the Western world as most video—
MOIYA: Mmmm.
ERIC: Or, uh, upon themselves and also the Western world in terms of video game consumption. Uh, we ended up talking about these big questions that are really confusing, and I needed someone who wants to get heady with me, um, and talk about this stuff.
MOIYA: That's me. Let's do it.
ERIC: Hell yeah. Well, first, I want to ask you two specific questions, uh, because I think we touched on this a little bit. You know, what's your relationship to Pokemon throughout your life? Again, as established, you and Thoreau were the same. In fact,
you did all of your study on the side of Walden Pond and you—
MOIYA: Yes.
ERIC: —did not have access to television earlier in your life.
MOIYA: Exactly the same. Yeah. Um, Henry David Thoreau let his lease lapse and then my family moved into Walden Pond.
[laughter]
MOIYA: Um, so I— I did not have much experience with Pokemon growing up. I was too poor to get the cards and there weren't a lot of people around to play the game with. So— because I— you know, I'm in the woods. Um—
ERIC: Fair— yes, exactly.
MOIYA: —but every— there was— there was one year when I was in first grade, um, so like 2001, 2002.
ERIC: Hell yeah.
MOIYA: And I would go to my nana's house, my grandma's house after school every day, and I would sit at her table in the kitchen. I would do all my homework. She would make me a bologna and mayonnaise sandwich.
ERIC: Hell yeah.
MOIYA: And then I would go into her bedroom and watch the Pokemon TV show.
ERIC: Oh!
MOIYA: And that is the only experience I have with it.
ERIC: That's fine, honestly. The anime is a good entry point. I— if—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: And you can't say this a lot of— I don't know if I can necessarily say this about a lot of other video game cartoon adaptations. They were pretty close. I know obviously—
MOIYA: Oh, good.
ERIC: —they do it— it's— it's— it was a little mushy. Notoriously in the Yu-Gi-Oh! anime, the rules make absolutely no sense as compared to the actual game. But the Pokemon anime is pretty close. It—
MOIYA: Hmmm.
ERIC: Because they didn't know it was gonna blow up, so they kinda was just like, "Yeah, let's do it, but I guess we're not gonna put that much time, or money, or effort into it." And then it—
MOIYA: Mmmm.
ERIC: —got good eventually.
MOIYA: Yeah. That is the interesting thing about these— uh, I— I can't really call it small or grassroots, like it's a big company over there that makes Pokemon—
ERIC: Sure.
MOIYA: —right? But when you build something, and you put it out into the world without knowing how it's going to react—
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: —and then you have to build on top of it with this base that you've already constructed without the— the pressures of everyone looking at you. Like, it's such an interesting thing to watch—
ERIC: Yes.
MOIYA: —um, from a world-builder's perspective.
ERIC: Oh, for sure. And I mean, this isn't just with, like, card games or from Japan. I mean, all of our favorite '80s cartoons like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, it was just a way— and like He-Man. It was just a way—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —to sell toys. Like, the—
MOIYA: Yes.
ERIC: —cartoon was just marketing to children to remind them to tell their parents to go buy the toys. And, like—
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: —the fact that, like, there's arts and— and there's like actual art involved becomes accidental, like, "Uh-oh. Oops. Whoops." That's why I always find all of the Marvel movies so funny, because, again, it's like—
MOIYA: Mmmm.
ERIC: —wow, we're trying to be really serious about, like, some dudes in the '70s just trying to make, like, $2 a day.
MOIYA: That's— that's really what it was.
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: Yeah, it's, it's— I really like watching world-building unfold over a long period of time, because you get to see when different people join the team, when different philosophies come into play, because you can see how they're making different decisions about their world-building. Pokemon is really interesting, because it has all of these iterations or all of these generations of Pokemon, and you can try and tease out what the differences between the subsequent generations are.
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: That's a fun exercise.
ERIC: Yes. I— I mean, we're gonna touch on this in a second but, like, it's very funny that in the first generation, there was Mewtwo, which is like a genetically created Pokemon, even before—
MOIYA: Mmmm.
ERIC: —there's any gods. Like there were Legendaries, which is like the legendary birds that were named after, uh, the Spanish words for one, two, and three. Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres. Shout-out to the American—
MOIYA: Wow.
ERIC: —uh, adaptation team. Um, and then also the Mewtwo is just like there. It's like that's what they wanted to get across. There are these bad guys called Team Rocket—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —genetically modifying a Pokemon that is so powerful. Uh, it is like an adaptation of, like, a mythical Pokemon we don't even know exists.
MOIYA: Oh.
ERIC: And like that was in the first game.
MOIYA: So like— like, um, like a Frankenstein type of unnatural aberration that— that some evil team put together. That's what—
ERIC: Yeah, that's Mewtwo, straight up.
MOIYA: That's Mewtwo? Oh.
ERIC: Like, he was the— the bad— he was, like, the last Pokemon in the whole— in the whole thing.
MOIYA: Poor Mewtwo.
ERIC: Yeah. It's like, uh, they took Mew's DNA, which is kind of like—I know that there's some world—there's obviously been some, uh, like, distinctions between, like, gods and legendary Pokemon, but Mew is kind of just like an angel vibing out, very much like a cherubic sort of, like, beautiful creature. And they took—
MOIYA: Mmm.
ERIC: —Mew's DNA and like, "Here's Mewtwo, who is a abomination and hates humans for what they've done to him." Like, that's in the first game.
MOIYA: I mean, wouldn't you?
ERIC: I would, too. It's just— I love they led with that.
MOIYA: Yeah. Right— right out the gate.
ERIC: Yeah. Okay. The— my second question I have to ask. I ask everyone who comes on WYFPATISSNAY and I— I think I'm gonna— I will modify it for you.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: Do you have a piece of Pokemon merch in your apartment right now?
MOIYA: No.
ERIC: Interesting.
MOIYA: No. I— there might be a sticker on a very old laptop, but, um, otherwise, no.
ERIC: I respect that. That's fine. I figured I'd ask.
MOIYA: Did most people have Pokemon paraphernalia in their homes?
ERIC: Oh, yeah. It's big business.
MOIYA: Ohh.
ERIC: Very big business. Also notoriously, the Pokemon Center, which is this—okay. So back on what you were talking about before of, like, who makes this. So Game Freak is the video game creator, but like the Pokemon Company spun off or is related to Nintendo as a separate entity. Once it got—
MOIYA: Mmmm.
ERIC: —so big, and then they started making merch and stuff. And the Pokemon Center is kind of the official merch store of the Pokemon—
MOIYA: Hmm.
ERIC: —Company and they make really, really high-quality stuffed animals, notoriously.
MOIYA: Oh.
ERIC: And they also make, like, really cool shirts and stuff. Um, they have, like, a new Team Rocket Capsule Collection, which are like the bad— the notorious bad guys from the first game, and it looks really hot.
MOIYA: Oh, I remember Jessie and James.
ERIC: Oh, yeah, Jessie and James.
MOIYA: As a— as a little budding bisexual, I remember Jessie and James.
ERIC: Yes. So, now you can get their hot fashions, Moiya, that just dropped.
MOIYA: Good. New Halloween idea.
ERIC: Well, hopefully, we— as— uh, I've already teased to you, but I'm going to tell you your new favorite Pokemon by the end of this episode. So maybe you can get a little—
MOIYA: Give it.
ERIC: —stuffed animal, uh, from the Pokemon Center of it.
MOIYA: Okay. I'd like that. Yeah.
ERIC: Uh, because we're talking about big questions, Moiya, I think it's fair that, like, we have, like, a bonfire going and we're, like, on the beach. [wipe transition sound effect; crackling fire and night noises]
MOIYA: Yes.
ERIC: And we're like— both of us are in, like, big hoodies and shorts.
MOIYA: Absolutely. Yeah, with the— the fire crackling. Um, I'm getting my feet— my foot as close to the fire as I can without burning myself.
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: Because I have cold feet.
ERIC: Yeah. And I'm like, Moiya—
MOIYA: Bad circulation.
ERIC: Yeah, and I keep throwing just, like, whatever sticks around into the fire, and I keep throwing and I'm like, "Should I throw plastic in the fire? No, I shouldn't."
MOIYA: No. I'm over here like, "No— no, Eric. Bad fumes."
ERIC: No, don't do that. No.
MOIYA: Don't do it.
ERIC: There's like a beach party happening somewhere over on the other side of the bonfire, but Moiya and I were like, "Hey, let's have our deep conversation. Moiya, I can't—"
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: "—believe we're not going to the same college next year. I'm really gonna miss you."
MOIYA: "Oh, so sad, but you're always going to be a part of my life, Eric."
ERIC: "I'll add you—"
MOIYA: "I'll never forget you."
ERIC: "I'll add you on Facebook. I know you're going to Smart University and I'm going to Middling University State, but, uh, I mean, they’re only 30 miles away. I can come— come to your parties and stuff."
MOIYA: "Well, totally, totally. And you'll get along with everyone, uh, at the school."
ERIC: Yeah. Yeah, we both go to school in Boston, but we won't say what schools we go to in Boston.
MOIYA: I hate how true that stereotype is.
ERIC: It's really true, it's true.
MOIYA: People have called me out on it, too. They're like, "Oh, you went to school in Boston. I know— I know where you went—"
ERIC: Just like Moiya— we can— we know, we get it. It's like, "No, I could have went to one of either of the smart schools, because I also know science, so it's fine."
MOIYA: I went to Wellesley! I went to Tufts, it's fine.
[laughter]
ERIC: Yeah, go— go Fighting Jumbos! I know it. All right. Um, so, Moiya, here are my big questions about Pokemon. Are you ready?
MOIYA: I'm so ready.
ERIC: Here's my first— here's my first question for you. What is it about humans that love having little monsters hang out with us all the time? I— I realize—
MOIYA: Little monsters.
ERIC: Just to give you some context from the video game, like a lot of the times the— you know, they hang out in Poke balls, right? Which might just be like—
MOIYA: Uh-huh.
ERIC: —a digital issue. You don't want Pokemon hanging out all the time when you're making your video game or your anime. But at the—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —same time, Pikachu in Pokemon Yellow which was, like, the second iteration after Red and Blue of that first generation. Like, Pikachu was following you around and was out the entire time. So Pikachu was hanging out, so like what—
MOIYA: Yeah, in the show. Pikachu was just hanging out.
ERIC: Yeah. In the— especially in the show. Yeah. It was almost like they— I— again, another beautiful whiff of world-building is like all the Pokemon are in Poke balls except for the mascot, we want you to see at all times.
MOIYA: Except for the one that is going to be the cute face of the show.
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: Who's also terribly scary powerful.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: So, what is it about humans that love these fictional stories of having, like, a little guy who hangs out with you, and also can, like, do damage that humans can't do? Because I mean, like—
MOIYA: Oh.
ERIC: —if— uh, anyone— we're talking about familiars or talking about daemons, like, what is it?
MOIYA: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Familiars, daemons, I'd say even pets—
ERIC: Oh, sure.
MOIYA: —falls into this. Humans love companionship. We are so lonely. Uh, so like—
ERIC: True. True.
MOIYA: I— I did some research into familiars because you specified that that's what you were aiming at, but I also wanted to look at pets, because I think they're very similar.
ERIC: Sure.
MOIYA: Um, but there are a lot of, especially European, religions and religious practices throughout history that have familiars included. Um, when we're talking about like the witch trials, when we're talking about paganism, and Wicca, whether that's thousands of years ago or the modern Wiccans.
ERIC: Mmm.
MOIYA: Uh, they are stereotypically associated with cats as familiars.
ERIC: Ohh.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm. So, like, there is this stereotype of a witch having a cat, uh, but that comes from kind of old European associations between spinsters and cats.
ERIC: Right.
MOIYA: Um, spinster, loner women who are unmarried and kind of on the outskirts of society. They would be surrounded by a lot of cats—
ERIC: Right.
MOIYA: —typically. Um, but you could also have a dog as a familiar, birds, toads, frogs. Um, there's one story from the Salem witch trials of a man, actually, uh, using magic to get a dog to do his bidding and attack someone else. And the dog was— was tried, um, and persecuted—
ERIC: Oh. Hell yeah.
MOIYA: —unfortunately. [laughs] Hell yeah.
ERIC: That's awesome. You know, the— Moiya, there's nothing in the rulebook that says a dog can't be a witch.
MOIYA: You're right. You are right, um, because in that Western view, familiars were assigned or given to witches by the devil.
ERIC: Oh.
MOIYA: And their job was to help the witch do the devil's evil bidding on Earth. Um, but from the— the practitioners’ side of things, from people who identify as Wiccan or pagan, uh, this— familiars are more like spiritual guides and protectors. Um, people who are— are Wiccans today who have familiars, who have these close, uh, animal companions. They talk about their familiars protecting them from evil spirits. They talk about the familiars guiding them through their spiritual practices. And so, they're— they're companionship. Uh, there are also other religions. It's not just Wicca and paganism. Um, there are Scandinavian practices of having more spiritual familiars, like, uh, folklore creatures, you know, like these elves, maybe little dwarves or fairies. These fey creatures that could guide you through the spirit realm. And then when we get to pets, humans have had pets for a long time. There's evidence that we had intentional relationships with dogs for more than 30,000 years.
ERIC: Oh, yeah.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: This is like the thing where, like, an old time human and a wolf is like, "Hey, do you want this meat and do you want to just, like, hang out near my fire?"
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: "Would you like that?"
MOIYA: Yeah, it was a beneficial relationship. It's mutually beneficial. Um, they provide companionship, they do provide protection. Um, you know, guard dogs are very much a thing. I'd like to think—
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: —of Cosmo as a guard cat. He's not very effective, but he has the spirit, you know? He's a—
ERIC: He tries.
MOIYA: I call him my vicious little murder baby. If a cockroach gets in, he will attack.
ERIC: That— I mean, fully true. I mean, the reason why you have cats is to kill vermin.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: Whether we're talking about like a witch living on her own, because she needs someone else to help her or, like— I know that cats— uh, there's a tradition of cats being in breweries and in bars.
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: So, like— it's like— I don't— I need you to keep stuff away from the sweet, sweet fermenting grain I have.
MOIYA: Yes. But we didn't do that on purpose. The cats did that. Uh, that's one of my favorite differences between cats and dogs. We domesticated dogs, cats domesticated themselves. They just—
ERIC: True.
MOIYA: —inserted themselves into our lives. And so, we like having cute little guys around because they make us feel less lonely. They protect us from the dangers of nature. And there are mental health benefits, for sure. They reduce our stress and our anxiety, and they're cute to look at.
ERIC: Oh, for sure. I think it's always fun knowing that Pokemon comes from the creator— uh, I should pull up his name, I will. Uh, how this was based on his love of catching bugs.
MOIYA: Mmmm.
ERIC: So it's like, "Well, I like finding new cool dudes, and then also what if they were a cat-type creature who hung out with me?"
MOIYA: Right. Like, “I really like grasshoppers, but they're— they're too small. What if I make a big grasshopper or a big— a big caterpillar, right? Uh, and I get it to walk around with me.”
ERIC: Yeah. Uh, what is it about these familiars that can do— like, what can they do that humans can't do? I think that what's always really interesting—
MOIYA: Mmmm.
ERIC: —about the initial starter Pokemon, plus Pikachu, that we’re talking about fire, water, grass, and electric, which are basic elements of our world. And then it's—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —like, "Well, we like Charmander because he can shoot fire. And that's tight. Squirtle can shoot water. Bulbasaur can whip someone with a vine, which I can't do as a person. And, Pikachu, obviously—”
MOIYA: That's tight!
ERIC: “—is incredibly powerful little electric mouse.” Like— okay. Dogs have sharp teeth that—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —we humans don't. But, like, are there other things that— of these familiars and daemons, like, what are their powers that they can do—
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: —that humans can't do?
MOIYA: Oh, that's a great one. Uh, they can get into spaces that we can't.
ERIC: Mmmm.
MOIYA: Um, if you've ever seen a cat crawl through, um, a hole that looks like it's way too small? Like that seems like a magical ability. Um—
ERIC: Moiya, I do follow Liquid Cats on Twitter, so yes.
MOIYA: Liquid— yes. Exactly. They are liquid and we are solid. We cannot, uh, begin to understand or fathom their existence. Yeah. So they can fit into small spaces. They have senses that are stronger and different than ours.
ERIC: Mmm.
MOIYA: Um, so sometimes cats do seem to do just be, like, staring into a corner and they’re— it seems like they're looking at something specific and it's really easy to make the leap from them looking in the corner to us thinking that they are seeing into another realm, that they have access to information that we don't have. Which is really good for guarding and really good for connecting with the spiritual world, which has been important in a lot of different religions. Um, they're fast.
ERIC: Right.
MOIYA: They can eat stuff that we can't eat without getting sick. You know, they— they don't have the appendix, like they can— they can eat uncooked food. Um, they— they can do a lot of small things that— that humans can't do.
ERIC: Hmm. I— honestly, it's like, "Yeah, that cockroach is just gone. I don't have to kill it and then throw it out. It just disappeared."
MOIYA: It disappears into the—
ERIC: It's just gone.
MOIYA: —into the portal tummy. Maybe like that's— like that's—
ERIC: It goes into the portal, and then it appears 500 feet away, somewhere else.
MOIYA: [laughs] Right. Ever— you go on a walk and you're like, "Oh, what is this pile of old bones and exoskeletons that just appeared?"
ERIC: It's from the portal of my cat familiar, yeah, for sure.
MOIYA: Yes. Exactly.
ERIC: Cool. Yeah. What specifically— uh, I want to know more about, like, the dwarves and the— and the elves and stuff. Like—
MOIYA: Hmm.
ERIC: —are they also just like little guys who get in places or can they do things with, like, their magics?
MOIYA: Yeah. I think throughout a lot of different folklore, these otherworldly beings have real impacts on our world. If something goes missing— actually, I— I still do this.
ERIC: Mmm.
MOIYA: My mom taught me well that whenever something goes missing, it's the pixies or it's the fairies.
ERIC: Got it.
MOIYA: And they have taken something either to punish me or to teach me a lesson, and maybe it'll turn up later. I just— I just have to make my peace with the fact that the fairies have taken it. Especially in Scandinavian countries where still there is a— a large reported fraction of the population that still believes in magical creatures like elves. Um, there might be more of a cultural understanding or a cultural belief that there are these little invisible creatures—
ERIC: Mm-hmm.
MOIYA: —that do stuff in the world when we're not watching. They take stuff away, they return lost objects. Um, and if there's like a sort of coincidence in your life, you know, they've been working behind the scenes to make that coincidence happen. Uh, they can look over you with favor, or they can look on you and bring misfortune to your life. So you really want to make sure you have a good relationship with these invisible forces around you, which is also just a way of getting people in your society to respect nature and respect, like, the stuff in your environment.
ERIC: Hmm. I like that a lot, because I think that we've drilled down on, like, three things that humans wish we could do, but can't. One is—
MOIYA: Ooh.
ERIC: —like, be powerful or do damage without weapons, which is, like, sharp teeth, claws, or—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —elemental shooting as we— we've talked about.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: The second is invisibility, which I think is something that you just touched on, or being particularly sneaky. And then the final thing is flight or traveling far distances—
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: —which, of course, your bird familiar would do, which is why we have flying Pokemon.
MOIYA: Yeah, that's great.
ERIC: I like that. I like that a lot.
[theme plays]
ERIC: Hey, it's Eric, and I got you Pokemon gummies! Why are there not gummies that are all the different stones and then you could take them and think that you're evolving in a different way? That should definitely exist. Why does that not exist? Mischa, invent it! Please continue to support this wonderful, independent content and join the Patreon, patreon.com/gamesandfeelings. As I said last week, we're starting ad-free episodes. If you don't want to hear me talking about this stuff, no mid-rolls, just straight content. And on top of that, you get bi-weekly episodes of the replay that aren't just on the full feed, patreon.com/gamesandfeelings. And shout-out to our producer-level patrons, Polly Burrage, Kelsey Duffy, and Peyton who have working GameCubes so you can play Mario Kart: Double Dash!! whatever you want. It's that orange spice color. I also want to shout-out my TikTok if you're on that thing. It's been really fun just kind of messing around and exploring it. I'm Eric the Silver, and it's been really fun to mess around on there. I'm posting NPCs for you to steal, other gaming stuff. Go check that out on TikTok. I'm reposting it to my Instagram and stuff, and you can just find the link in the episode description as well. Go check me out on TikTok. It is a great day to try one of the other shows from here at the Multitude Collective. You can listen to one of Dr. Moiya McTier’s shows, Pale Blue Pod, which is an astronomy podcast for people who are overwhelmed by the universe, but want to be its friend. Moiya and Corinne demystify space one topic at a time with open eyes, open arms, and open mouths from laughing so much and dropping your jaws. By the end of the episode, the cosmos will feel a little less, "Ah, too scary," and a lot more, "Oh, so cool." New episodes every Monday, weekly, wherever we get your podcasts. Pale Blue Pod. We are sponsored this week by Potion Slingers, a fantastic deck-building strategy card game. Potion Slingers is deck-building with a twist. The decks are built while you play and cards stick around until you use them, so you can stack and combine them to your heart's content. It's super accessible to fans of multiplayer deck-building, and I know you are, or for anyone who's trying to get into tabletop games. All the characters have their own playstyle, as well as a neat flip ability that upgrades them when certain conditions are met. The game is weird and wild, every card is an obtuse pun, an alchemy reference, a deep cut, or all of the above. I have had so much fun checking out this game. I even came up with a few cards that are inspired by Games and Feelings and Join the Party. You can check it out there, they'll be released. You can do little stickers and just be able to play with them. So you can play with three cards I came up with. Isn't that sick? Check it out right now. Go to potionslingers.com to see the cards for yourself and buy a copy. That's potionslingers.com. All right. Let's get back to the show.
[theme plays]
ERIC: Okay. I got a second question. The whole thing of Pokemon is when you begin— [laughter] you are always playing a child.
MOIYA: Yes. No matter what. You can't, like, choose to be an adult in—
ERIC: No.
MOIYA: —this world.
ERIC: You're in a world of adults, as you run into trainers, and gym leaders, and professors, and the— the Pokemon League. And sometimes the bad people, like there's always, uh, an antagonist involved, and they're always, like, at least teenagers, if not truly adults. But you're always—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —10, which I find deeply funny.
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: When I initially asked this question, you responded and said, "Yeah, you're 10 when you play the game, duh."
MOIYA: Duh! I mean, that is the primary reason. Like, we can't— we can't have this conversation and pretend that that's not why.
ERIC: Right. But I just had a further question that I wanted to know about, is like can we talk about the age of adulthood throughout a bunch of societies? Obviously—
MOIYA: Hell yeah.
ERIC: —in the modern Western world, it's 18 or 21, which feels old, especially—
MOIYA: Mmm.
ERIC: —comparing to, like, the vibes you get from other places, like when you do Communion or, obviously, when you get Bar Mitzvahed, from what I know—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —you're— you're 13, which is very young, when you think about it, because, like, you're in seventh grade and I didn't know anything. And it was like, [in high-pitched voice] "I— I'm a man. I'm really good at being a man."
MOIYA: With your voice that hasn't even changed yet.
ERIC: "I'm a man. Yeah, I did it." [in normal voice] So, yeah, can we talk about the age of adulthood and, like, is 10 a little too young to have your first Pokemon—
MOIYA: Hmmm.
ERIC: —and go on your adventure?
MOIYA: Uh, real quick, no.
ERIC: Oh.
MOIYA: Um, I— I looked into different, uh, rites of passage from around the world, and there was a big range of ages that I saw, and it ranged from about seven to 20 or 21.
ERIC: Ooh. Okay. Yeah.
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: I wanna hear it.
MOIYA: Yeah. Um, so, first, I think it's important to talk about why we have these rite of passage rituals. Why is it so common everywhere to have a celebration or a ritual that marks the transition from childhood to adulthood?
ERIC: Mm-hmm.
MOIYA: And that is because, as humans, we have a very noticeable puberty. This is a—
ERIC: Ohh.
MOIYA: —cultural aspect, that is, I think, a direct result of our actual biology. If we were a little bit less, uh, sexually dimorphic as a species, if there weren't these noticeable differences between male and female, not that it's that simple of a— of a binary—
ERIC: Right.
MOIYA: —spectrum, but—
ERIC: Just talking—
MOIYA: Right.
ERIC: —about our literal biology—
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: —for sure.
MOIYA: Yeah. Um, so we have a very noticeable puberty. We start growing hair in different places, our voices change. For some of us, we start to menstruate, and it's a very scary thing. Like, "Oh, my God. Why is blood happening?" Um—
ERIC: That's wild— that's really wild when you think about it. Like, alien coming down, it's like, "So one group of your dudes—"
MOIYA: Yes.
ERIC: "—bleed once a month and they're like"— and then you're—
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: —like, "Yup, I guess."
MOIYA: Uh-huh.
ERIC: "Yeah."
MOIYA: And we just go about our lives while it's happening, because we're not allowed to bring attention to it or whatever.
ERIC: It's like, "Oh, yeah—"
MOIYA: Um—
ERIC: "---same thing happens with my tentacles. Yeah, no, I understand. I get it."
MOIYA: Right, right, right. I would love to find a menstruating alien species. I would love for that to be the first one we make contact with.
ERIC: I'm surprised no one's, like, applied that. I'm sure that it has happened, but— because—
MOIYA: Mmmm.
ERIC: But I don't read sci-fi enough to know— have an example of this particular metaphor. But I'm— I'm surprised that I can't pull—
MOIYA: Mmm.
ERIC: —an example out of the ether really easily of, like, a metaphor for menstruation in— in an alien species.
MOIYA: That might be because of how we tend to base alien species off of non-human or usually non-mammal things—
ERIC: Oh, yeah.
MOIYA: —on Earth. I mean, so many aliens are humanoid, um, and then we don't really get into a lot of the details of their biological functions. But when we're trying to make something that is very alien—
ERIC: Right.
MOIYA: —we usually model it after bug-type things.
ERIC: Right. Yeah. I was gonna say they're either— they're like insectoid or reptilian and—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: But it just so happens they have two legs and two arms.
MOIYA: Exactly. Um, so, yeah, we have very noticeable puberties and as humans, I think, throughout history, there is nothing we love more than marking a noticeable transition in nature.
ERIC: If there’s one thing—
MOIYA: We love—
ERIC: —humans love.
MOIYA: Yes. We love to celebrate cycles. We love to celebrate the changing of the seasons. We love to celebrate when new crops come up. We love to celebrate when the tides change. We—
ERIC: Mmm.
MOIYA: We love that shit. And so I think it's— it's interesting for, um, a coming of age thing, because puberty doesn't happen to everyone at the same time.
ERIC: Right.
MOIYA: Uh, It happens at different ages. And even now, there are studies that show, especially among girls, that puberty is happening earlier and earlier, because there are hormones and other chemicals, in a lot of the stuff we eat, but that's a— that's a different—
ERIC: Oh, that's wild. Yeah.
MOIYA: —conversation. Um—
ERIC: That's a very— that's another very confusing conversation.
MOIYA: Right.
ERIC: Not in the Pokemon episode of a games advice podcast.
MOIYA: No. Although maybe, because the— the typical age for puberty used to be around, like, 14, 15—
ERIC: Oh.
MOIYA: —for— for people assigned female at birth. And now it's closer to, like, 10, 11, 12, so we are getting down to the Pokemon age.
ERIC: Ooh. Okay.
MOIYA: Um, yeah. The other reason we see such a wide range of when these rites of passage happen is because not every culture assigns adulthood at the same milestone.
ERIC: Okay.
MOIYA: Like for some people, it might be puberty, but for other cultures, it might be your— your marriage or maybe even, um, having a kid, or moving out from your parents' home. Like, there are these different touchstones.
ERIC: Mm-hmm.
MOIYA: And so, I've found a few examples of really interesting rite of passage rituals from around the world.
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: Um, and then I— I definitely want to hear more about the Bar and Bat Mitzvah, um, practice. But the youngest— the youngest ritual that I found comes to us from Vanuatu Island. It's this little island chain in the South Pacific Ocean, and the practice there is for young boys who jump off of this giant, human-constructed tower. It's—
ERIC: Hell yeah.
MOIYA: —almost a hundred feet tall. And they jump off of this tower with a little vine tied to their feet, but it's, like, not a su— it's not as reliable as bungee jumping. One number off in your calculation—
ERIC: Oh, my God.
MOIYA: —and you're just dead. And they start doing this at seven years old.
ERIC: That's— uh, Moiya, here's the thing, that's tight as hell.
MOIYA: That's tight as hell, right?
ERIC: Again, that's tight as hell. If we were zooming out and were, like, you learned about this, or it's like you heard that someone was doing, it's like, "That's awesome. Glad that's not my people. I'm glad I don't have to do that."
MOIYA: I'm— I'm glad it's not my people, because, I 100% would have done this.
ERIC: Yeah, for sure.
MOIYA: I— as a girl, I imagine, I would have had to do this, you know, like in secret, or with trickery. I would have had to pull a Mulan to jump off of this giant tower that probably would have made me leap to my death, you know?
ERIC: [to the tune of “Be A Man”] You must be swift to jump off the tower.
MOIYA: With all the force of all the gravity bringing you to the ground.
[laughter]
MOIYA: It's so dangerous that they start doing it around seven or eight years old, and they will do this several times before they are considered men in their society.
ERIC: That kind of makes sense to me, though. It's like theoretically, if this is a tradition passed on from, like, a time where you need to defend yourself, it's a— it's a trial of— of—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —fortitude. It's a trial of courage.
MOIYA: Yes, yes. So many of these are— especially for— for boys, uh, they are trials of courage, and strength, and, like, survivability.
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: Uh, so this next one— this next one is, uh, for the Inuit boys, young Inuit boys on Baffin Island, which is this island, like, to the northeast of Canada. Uh, around the age of 11 or 12, young boys will start going out to hunt in the wilderness, uh, with their parents, with their fathers and other people from the community.
ERIC: Mm-hmm.
MOIYA: But that is a test of how well can you survive in the wilderness and how well can you provide for your community. That is— so a lot of these rites of passage are testing things that are traditionally associated with that— that gender role. So for boys, it's strength and bravery. For girls, a lot of the time, it's like beauty and cleanliness, and you're ready to get married and have a baby.
ERIC: Right.
MOIYA: [sarcastically] Yay. Uh, so for one of the ones that I found is a Sri Lankan ritual. It's, uh, for young girls, the summer after they have their first period, or like in the year after they have their first period and the exact date of it depends on some astrology stuff.
ERIC: Sure.
MOIYA: Um, but the young, new women, uh, will be separated from the rest of their community. They're not allowed to have contact with boys or men, uh, for a few days. And then they undergo this ritual bathing in either, like, beautiful jasmine water or water that has, like, honey or milk, or something in it. Uh, and then they emerge and they are put in new— like brand-new clothes and their family’s fancy jewelry, and they are shown to the— the community as— as a new woman.
ERIC: Hmm.
MOIYA: Um, so that— that is typically how some of the more traditional rites of passage for girls go. But I— I love that in Judaism there— there's a similar practice for—
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: —for girls and boys - Bar and Bat Mitzvahs, but I would love to hear more about them.
ERIC: Yeah, for sure. It's kind of funny, like most religious kind of rites of passage, where it feels a little bit, like, perfunctory in that—
MOIYA: Hmmm.
ERIC: —the religiosity and just, like, religion as a community activity is certainly not the main thing of what we're doing here.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: So it's kind of interesting is, like, the main thing that you do with Bar and Bat Mitzvah is that you're supposed to, like, kind of lead the service, which is in— being a part of the Torah service, and you do all these rituals, and then some other stuff. It's like you read things out loud, and, uh, you like— also part of that is, like, making a speech and—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —then you get to have a party afterwards. And you do it when you're 12 or 13.
MOIYA: I've been— I've been to some.
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: Oh, Bar Mitzvahs are tight. Bar and Bar Mitzvahs are really tight.
MOIYA: So tight.
ERIC: The— the thing is, uh, Moiya, you can assume, um, a Bat Mitzvah is something that was invented in modernity. Like, a Bat Mitzvah is not a real thing.
MOIYA: Can imagine. That is— that is one of the things I value and respect so much about Judaism, is that it's kind of baked into the religion that you learn and evolve as time goes on. Like, the study of Rabbinics is very beautiful, in my opinion.
ERIC: Yes. It's— it's— depending on what sect of Judaism it is. It's like— on a sliding sc— I can't figure out anything about Christianity. It's like, I don't know what Episcopalians do. Whatever it is—
MOIYA: Eyy!
ERIC: —it's nice, it's neat. I don't know what— how you're different than Catholics, or Greek Orthodox, or Roman Catholics. I don't get it. I don't know. Some of you like iconography. Some of you extremely don't like iconography. I don't know. But in—
MOIYA: I like how you're saying you, like, to me.
ERIC: Y'all, y'all. The general y'all. Um, I don't get it. So— but in— in Judaism is— I think it— honestly, each sect is about how willing you are to accept that modernity exists. Like, there are—
MOIYA: Mmm.
ERIC: —literally sects of Judaism where people dress the same way that they do in the shtetl. Like, they wear—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —big fur hats and big black coats, because that's what we did in— when the shtetl existed before everything changed and the Fire Nation attacked. You know what I mean? So, uh— so depending— especially in Conservative Judaism, which is this kind of, like, middle, uh, area between Reform, which is where it's like— its own— I find some parts of Reform Judaism to be a little, like, assimilative. But at the—
MOIYA: Mmmm.
ERIC: —same time, it's the one that accepts, like, liberal beliefs the most as—
MOIYA: Right.
ERIC: —as religion is— it wrestles with, you know, social issues.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: Um—
MOIYA: It's, uh, hippy Judaism, is that— is that a fair assessment?
ERIC: Uh, yeah. If there's gonna be a guitar, it's probably Reform Judaism. But, like, I grew up a Conservative Jewish, which is, again, different than conservative, uh, political stuff.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: And there's a whole reckoning on wrestling with ideas and wrestling with modernity. Like, the— the really interesting thing is that on Shabbat, you're not supposed to do any work—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —is ultimately what it is. And that— in the modern age has stemmed to don't use electricity—
MOIYA: Right.
ERIC: —because electricity counts as work. But in Conservative Judaism, there are both Rabbinic ideas that you can and cannot turn on a light bulb. So either one you're doing is actually fine, because they are both accepted.
MOIYA: They're both fine, but they're also both wrong.
ERIC: No, no, no. They're not both wrong.
MOIYA: They're not—
ERIC: They're both right.
MOIYA: Oh. Oh. So, it only goes in that direction?
ERIC: I— it's more like different rabbis has— have given, like, papers, saying that it is or is not Rabbinically fine to—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —follow this particular thing on Shabbat. And, uh, they're both like, "Follow— follow either one." Like— and then you can decide—
MOIYA: Oh.
ERIC: —for yourself, and you can cite that Rabbinic decision. Uh, because I— I would say no. It's they’re both right.
MOIYA: Okay.
ERIC: Uh, I can't say that definitively, but I think that's the vibe that they're going for and from what I understand. So the—
MOIYA: I like that.
ERIC: —Bat Mitzvah, going back to your original question, is that this was actually invented in 1922 by Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan, who arranged for his daughter, Judith, to become the first Bat Mitzvah in a public synagogue ceremony.
MOIYA: Wow.
ERIC: Yeah. Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan was also the founder of Reconstructionism, which is another sect of Judaism, which is, like, really breaking down Judaism to fit in, like, modern American society.
MOIYA: Hmmm.
ERIC: Basically, it's— it's pretty interesting. Again, it's like you're trying to— as you become more religious, things are more traditional.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: So finding that balance is always really difficult. It's just very explicit in Judaism as opposed to, like, kind of the accepted ideas of how that touches in Christianity, and I'm sure in other major religions that everyone practices.
MOIYA: Interesting. 1920s is simultaneously earlier and later than my expectation.
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: Like, I— worst-case scenario, I was, like, the '70s. And best-case scenario, I was, like, 1860s, you know? So '20s is— is right in the middle.
ERIC: Yeah, I think it's interesting. It's— it really feels like once Jews got their feet established in America—
MOIYA: Mmmm.
ERIC: —that's why that made— that time makes sense for me—
MOIYA: Okay.
ERIC: —is like, "Okay, we've come"—uh, it's like— this was after World War I, where people were migrating from Eastern Europe to America and, then like, we were living in these spots, like in New York City and the Lower—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —East Side. But it was before World War II happened where there was stuff to— there were things to go to, but it wasn't—
MOIYA: Mmm.
ERIC: —like a free for all trying to escape all the things happening in World War II at the time. So like that—
MOIYA: Right.
ERIC: —that makes sense for me. Um, but it's— it's interesting that, like, you know— it does— I agree with you. It feels modern, but still old, which I think—
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: —kind of feels good for me. I mean, it's been a hundred years. It's been over a hundred years.
MOIYA: That's kind of nice. Yeah. I wonder if— if there was a— a big acknowledgement of that, like a big centennial Bat Mitzvah bash somewhere.
ERIC: Hmm. There probably was. I'm looking at this article, and there was a 70th anniversary of Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah, uh—
MOIYA: Aw.
ERIC: —that had happened. I think the Reconstruction movement had, like, a celebration for that. So, yeah, there must be.
MOIYA: Good.
ERIC: That's cool. All right, Moiya. I have another question. Now that we're talking about religion. I— this one's pretty heady. Are you ready?
MOIYA: Yeah, I think I am.
ERIC: Okay. So, we— I have touched on what religion is in the Pokemon universe a little bit. There isn't, like, explicit religion, uh, because I think also— because it's from Japan, this is also tied to, like, a lot of Shinto ideas and, you know, Pokemon represent elements, so there—
MOIYA: Mmmm.
ERIC: —are different Pokemon that do all this stuff. But there is ultimately a creator. There is this— the Alpha Pokemon, which I think is related to the alpha and the omega of what people call Jesus, and from what I understand of that whole biz. So there's Arceus is the Alpha Pokemon, the original one.
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: It is said that the entire Pokemon universe and all the other legendary Pokemon were created by Arceus, who's kind of, like, a big llama, who's a god with, like, a big— there's a big, like, golden ring surrounding him if you could picture that.
MOIYA: Hmm. Oh, yeah, I can envision a— a divine llama with a golden halo.
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: For sure.
ERIC: What's extra funny is that, uh, Arceus speaks to you directly in one of the newest Pokemon games called Pokemon Legends: Arceus where basically you are brought back in time by him.
MOIYA: Oh.
ERIC: And then he talks to you through a phone, which— [Moiya laughs] it's a— it's a cell phone that looks like him.
MOIYA: He talks to you through a phone that looks like him?
ERIC: Yeah. Like, you know what? You know you— when you see like an iPhone that has like a case—
MOIYA: Uh-huh.
ERIC: —that looks like a— like a Pikachu.
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: Like, imagine that, but it's for a divine llama Pokemon.
MOIYA: [laughs] Okay. What a moment.
ERIC: So, he's— he's a— Arceus is really— it's pretty funny. Here's my question, what does this say about the Pokemon world and this particular story—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —if the creator is a Pokemon—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —and the entire things that humans do— and theoretically, Arceus has created both Pokemon and humans, and the world.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: How— what does it say about their world that the divine creator was a Pokemon and yet we, humans, like, catch, and train, and fight—
MOIYA: Mmm.
ERIC: —with Pokemon?
MOIYA: Mm-hmm. Great question. What an amazing topic that I'm sure we could discuss ad nauseam, but I want—
ERIC: Yes.
MOIYA: —to approach this from two directions.
ERIC: Please.
MOIYA: Um, I want to approach it from the world-builder perspective, trying to figure out what they were thinking when they made this decision.
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: And I want to approach it from the in-world perspective, saying, "What does it feel like for the characters in that world to have this be the case?"
ERIC: Right.
MOIYA: Um—
ERIC: I also want to point out, it's— I don't think— they don't, like, pray to Arceus. He's just kind of like a dude.
MOIYA: That does make sense.
ERIC: Okay.
MOIYA: That does— that does make sense, um, given the Shinto tie-in. It was created by a Japanese company, um—
ERIC: Right.
MOIYA: —but a Japanese company that's trying to make a product with mass appeal for the U.S., which is mostly Christian.
ERIC: Yes.
MOIYA: Um—
ERIC: I also wanna quickly— which— which only supports your belief, is that Arceus was introduced in Gen 4—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —uh, which came out in 2006 in Japan, in 2007 in the West. So—
MOIYA: Oh.
ERIC: —this was already definitely a popular established video game—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —at the time.
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: Just to— to help you with that.
MOIYA: Okay. Because from the— from the world-builder perspective of answering this question, this feature does to me seem like the sign of kind of slapdash world-building and that— that's—
ERIC: True.
MOIYA: I do not mean that to insult their world-building because there is beautiful world-building happening, but, you know, they— they made this game, they adapted it into a show. It got really popular, but the— like, the whole point of the game was these little monsters following—
ERIC: Mm-hmm.
MOIYA: —children around and fighting for them, like fighting to entertain them. Um, they had to then build in a lot more stuff to explain the world in a way that matched what they had already done, and was appealing to a very broad audience. And so in my mind, they made this decision to have Arceus be the creator Pokemon because it fit in with their lore. They had already established that there were legendary Pokemon. They had already established that there were, um, different generations of Pokemon, but it was mysterious, because I think they want—
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: —uh, to have a lot of mystery in this world. This does not feel like the type of world that they want to be very, like, hard, and explained, and rational. There should be some mystery in it. Um—
ERIC: Yeah. Definitely.
MOIYA: Yeah. But I think having Arceus be a Pokemon who created the universe is— and I don't know if this was how they made their decision, but from my perspective, it seems like a convenient way to get around the moral dilemma of the, like, animal fighting that—
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: —seems to underpin this world. Um, because they could say, you know, "This is the creator, everything in the world happens kind of with their consent, or even with their, um, like, intention behind it, or—"
ERIC: Sure.
MOIYA: Like, whatever. But that gives them an out to say, "It's fine that this is how the Pokemon are treated, because the creator wouldn't let that happen if it wasn't okay."
ERIC: Yeah. No, that's a really good point. I'm also thinking about tying— they're like, "How do we make this okay?" It's like, well, in the Pokemon world, animals, monsters—
MOIYA: Mmm.
ERIC: —and gods are all Pokemon. They're all the same. So anything that's alive that’s not humans are Pokemon.
MOIYA: Mmmm.
ERIC: So it kind of makes sense, right? Like, the only thing— if it's not human, it has to be Pokemon, and then therefore, god and legendaries, which we already established in this thing, in the previous game, like the god of water and the god of land are Pokemon. And so they were created, they must have a higher creator.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: So there we go.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: So definitely, when you remember— when you realize this is game four, it certainly makes sense.
MOIYA: Yeah, because by— if you are a world-builder who puts things out in iterative fashion, yeah. By the time you get to iteration four or five, you're like, "Oh, I've already backed myself into all these corners. I need some way to explain everything." And sometimes it's not going to be the most elegant explanation. Sometimes it is going to feel like you’ve just shoehorned something in. Um—
ERIC: For sure.
MOIYA: —but this is definitely a deviation from a lot of real-world religions. Most people around the world imagined that the— the gods, the ultimate creators, not that every religion has one of those, um—
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: —but a lot of them assumed that the creator made us in their image, and so we envision them as humans, um, maybe with some, like, big glowing light or they're bigger than us. There are some that had animal features to their gods, you know, there's—
ERIC: Yeah, that's what I was thinking about.
MOIYA: Yeah. There's— there's Ganesha with the elephant head in Hinduism, there's Anubis with a jackal head in Egyptian mythology, there— there's the feathered serpent god Quetzalcoatl in Nuwa myths— so, um, we often combine animals and humans to make them divine. And in those cases, a lot of those animals are also considered sacred. You know, the Nuwa—
ERIC: Right.
MOIYA: —people would— would treat birds and serpents differently, like they would maybe listen to them or follow them on a path or something. So, yeah, it's— it's definitely a deviation from real-world religion, but that's because I think they had to just— justify some of their earlier decisions.
ERIC: No, that makes sense. It— it would be really wild if you were like, "All right. Hey, all elephants, we're gonna race them perpetually."
MOIYA: [laughing] Right.
ERIC: You'd be like, "Why?" "It's because they're sacred. Because they're— it's an extension of our creators." Like, "that doesn't make any sense!"
MOIYA: We're— we're gonna have cow fights, and when they are too exhausted to fight anymore, we're just gonna bring them back into their tiny little pocket dimensions.
ERIC: Yeah, yeah. We're gonna give them a little house.
MOIYA: A very little house.
ERIC: Uh, the tiniest house. Uh, Moiya, I want to ask you one quick question before I tell you about your favorite Pokemon, because I think this is kind of an extension of the thing that you talk about all the time.
MOIYA: Hmm.
ERIC: My— my favorite thing about Pokemon is how many different types there are, and I love how various there are.
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: So going off of what we talked about, like there's a ghost-type and a fairy-type Pokemon.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: Alongside these elemental types that we've talked about - fire, water, grass, electric, rock, ground, flying.
MOIYA: Hmm.
ERIC: And then we have, like, the— and then the wild ones are over there, where it's like the mechanical ones.
MOIYA: Ooh.
ERIC: The spooky ones. Dark is literally evil. It— it's a— it's like being tricky, that is— as is translated from, um, the Japanese. It's like actually evil.
MOIYA: Oh.
ERIC: Is what dark means. Just from a magic perspective—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —what does it say that the elemental, and, like, the scientific, and the alchemical, and the Weird, capital W, Weird, are next to each other when we talk about—
MOIYA: Ooh.
ERIC: —these pocket monsters?
MOIYA: I think that this is a beautiful example of how you don't need to have a magic system that is pure, like, magic mysticism versus—
ERIC: Right.
MOIYA: —pure science and mechanical. I think that this— if you can even call it a magic system, I think it blends those two really well. And I think that that is actually just a good reflection of how taxonomy works in the real world.
ERIC: True.
MOIYA: Because at the end of the day, these Pokemon are being studied by scientists. You know, there are all the tree professors, um—
ERIC: Right.
MOIYA: —who are studying these Pokemon like a real biologist does here on Earth. They are assigning them to different categories. And over time, as they encounter new Pokemon and they learn more about how the known Pokemon actually work, they have to create new categories, and they have to create cross-categorization, which is why you have like a fire/fairy-type Pokemon—
ERIC: Right.
MOIYA: —or whatever. I think that this is a sign that in that world, the people studying Pokemon, they saw the fire and the grass and the water really immediately—
ERIC: Mm-hmm.
MOIYA: —because that's— those are forces of nature that seem very obvious, uh—
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: —at first. And then as they learned more, they had to create these other categories, and that, to me, is a very satisfying explanation that doesn't necessarily touch on the magic system of it all, but is just—
ERIC: Hmm.
MOIYA: —a consequence of human discovery and categorization.
ERIC: No, it's cool. I think it's cool. It's— there's something about, like— I— I think about a lot of those magic systems where it's like, "Actually, magic doesn't exist. It's
just, um, science that we're doing all at the same time." And then there's like, "Magic’s weird and it's strange." Or—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —like, "Magic is creativity." And we're like, "Shut up, Patrick Rothfuss.” [laughter] Uh, so—
MOIYA: Like, to me, this just seems like big ‘magic is only science we haven't discovered yet’ energy—
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: —uh, that infuses into the entire Pokemon world.
ERIC: But I think that at the same time, it's like— it's cool—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —instead of, like, trying to break it. Like, it's actually not magic, it's science, is a real like, "No, you're not allowed to have wonder in your life," sort of vibe. And I—
MOIYA: Right.
ERIC: —like that it— we're— we're talking about, like, creature taxonomy, but they're still weird.
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: And I like that. I'm— also, my— my mind is getting a little blown in terms of, like, the types of— that a Pokemon is— can be two types, but they can also learn moves that are not of their type, because that has more to do with, like, physiology—
MOIYA: Mmmm.
ERIC: —and ability than, like, categorization, which I find deeply interesting.
MOIYA: Yeah, I bet you do. As, uh—uh, also a— a D&D person, I'm sure you find that very interesting.
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: This is something I'm dealing with in my current campaign, where the— what I want to have as a character is not fitting neatly into the categories that were provided by the game, so—
ERIC: We'll— we'll talk about it, I'll help you. I'll help you out. That's fine. Um, all right, Moiya. We are in the back part of WYFPATISSNAY, which, surprise, I'm gonna say a bunch of nice stuff about you!
MOIYA: Yay!
ERIC: I said it in the title, and now it's happening. Uh, Moiya, it is so lovely to talk to you, and I'm so happy that, uh, I met you through podcasting.
MOIYA: Yes!
ERIC: As podcasting is the only way that adults are allowed to be friends anymore.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: Um, but I think you're super smart and I think you're super talented. And the main reason I want the writers' strike to end is so your TV show can happen.
MOIYA: Thank you. [laughter]
ERIC: Like— it's like, otherwise, I want it to go on forever, but other— so that they finally will get what they deserve, which I still want.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: But I'm like something— the little thing is like, "Well, I need Moiya's TV show to exist. I need it to happen."
MOIYA: Thank you.
ERIC: I love that—
MOIYA: Me, too.
ERIC: I love that you come on these shows and I think that you're wonderful to be around and, uh, why I wanted you to come back, uh, onto one of the shows
that I host.
MOIYA: Oooh. Oh, I'm already blushing. This is great. I'm so excited.
ERIC: Yeah. Okay. Moiya, do you want to know about your new favorite Pokemon? MOIYA: Yes, I do, and then I'm gonna go get a stuffed animal!
ERIC: Yes. Hell yeah. I'm— I have not looked it up, so I'm really hoping that this is the case. There should be, because I'm talking about Cosmog.
MOIYA: Ooh.
ERIC: Look at—
MOIYA: Ohhhh! Oh, it's so cute.
ERIC: For those of you who don't know, Cosmog is a psychic-type Pokemon - legendary Pokemon - from Gen 7, which is Alola, which are the Hawaiian Islands, uh, Pokemon. Uh, the whole thing about it, because there's like a connection— it's Pokemon Sun and Pokemon Moon, and Cosmog is kind of, like, the little guy in the center of it. Cosmog is the nebula Pokemon.
MOIYA: Hell yeah.
ERIC: He’s just a little guy, Moiya.
MOIYA: Just a little guy with, like, space buns.
ERIC: He does. He has space buns. Um, if— for those—if you haven't seen it before, basically, Cosmog is like a little— a little gaseous dude. His center is black and then there's, like, kind of, real space ombre going all over him.
MOIYA: Hell yeah.
ERIC: It's— it's like a little— a little— he has little beady eyes and he's yellow, and there's golden half circles around him. He's just adorable.
MOIYA: And that's definitely a ring, that's— which doesn't—
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: —make sense for a nebula or a galaxy, but I'm here for it. And those sparkles—
ERIC: It's like spoiler on a car, Moiya, it's not real.
MOIYA: It's just for show.
ERIC: It's just for show.
MOIYA: Those, uh, those sparkles in his face, man, those— that's— that's a new star forming region right there. That is— that's where you would expect to find some molecular clouds and some—
ERIC: Yeah.
MOIYA: —ionized gas.
ERIC: Yeah. Uh, Cosmog is also—
MOIYA: Hehehe.
ERIC: He's just gaseous. Moiya, canonically, Cosmog is eight inches tall and weighs 0.2 pounds.
MOIYA: Ohh! Look, I am also very gassy. This is great.
ERIC: So Cosmog is, like, the first evolution of— uh, ordinarily, legendary Pokemon don't evolve—
MOIYA: Hmm.
ERIC: —so— but this is actually really cool. It's a new thing that happened in the later— in the later games. Um, so Cosmog is stage one, and then Cosmog becomes Cosmoem, which is basically Cosmog as a cocoon.
MOIYA: Ooh.
ERIC: So it becomes— like those golden rings become like a cocoon, almost. Like, a little package.
MOIYA: Interesting.
ERIC: Is there something about— so Cosmog actually evolves really late. It's like level 40 something.
MOIYA: Oh.
ERIC: So I wonder if like— it's something about, like, how long, uh, like a cosmos and like galaxies, like, stand, like, a young— or a young star—
MOIYA: Hmm.
ERIC: —is like kajillions of years old. And then eventually, it— it evolves. I would— I just thought of that.
MOIYA: Oh, I love that. Um, I would really like if that's how they made that decision, because stuff in space does take a really long time. It can take a star millions of years to form, so—
ERIC: Mmm. In later generations they're not just saying, like, "Ah, I don't know! Let’s just do whatever.” They’re— it's a little more intentional.
MOIYA: They're— at least by the later generations, they're, like, looking at a Wikipedia article.
ERIC: Right. At Game Freak, they took out the big book and said, "Actually, we need to start reading this. We can't just do whatever."
MOIYA: “We can't just use this as a paperweight anymore, guys." [laughter]
ERIC: And then, depending on if you have Sun or Moon, Cosmoem becomes Solgaleo, which is a big sun lion, or Lunala, which is a big moon bat.
MOIYA: Oh, my God. Yes! I wanna be a big moon bat! Everything about this is perfect.
ERIC: I— I love—
MOIYA: Eric, you're right. This is my new favorite Pokemon. Coming in, I was like, "No one's gonna remove Ditto from my heart." But I don't know, Eric. You might have done it.
ERIC: Uh, on top of that, Cosmog has a lot of fun powers in that, since he's just full of gas, he just gets blown wherever he goes and he just is - but if he's in a jam, he warps away to a safe place to hide.
MOIYA: Aww!
ERIC: So, teleportation powers for— you know, let's just give this small child teleportation powers. That's fine.
MOIYA: That's totally fine.
ERIC: And, uh, this is right from the Pokedex of Pokemon Moon. “In ages past, it was called the child of the stars. It was said to be a Pokemon from another world, but no specific details are known.” So I thought you would like that from a mythological perspective.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: That, like, we assume it's an alien, instead of, like, studying space, which is kind of the combination of your whole thing.
MOIYA: Oh, my God. I'm in love with this. There is a very non-zero chance that I will get a tattoo of Cosmog on my body.
ERIC: Hehehehehe! I'll take it. I know— I love it. I didn't even realize, I didn't even think of the buns. The buns is— are adorable.
MOIYA: I know, so cute. Thank you. Oh, WYFPATISSNAY, it's great. It's great.
ERIC: WYFPATISSNAY, changing lives.
MOIYA: True.
ERIC: I feel like now someone's gonna have to get you, like, a 3DS, so you can play Sun and Moon now.
MOIYA: Yeah. Hey, anyone, uh, send— you wanna send one to the Multitude office for me? Please.
ERIC: Yeah. Sun and Moon are good, too. Uh, they're really good. Uh, if, like, someone's— if, like, Amanda's siblings have them— uh, we have a DS. I don't think we ever had a 3DS.
MOIYA: Mmm.
ERIC: Um, so if someone has it, we can get you to play Sun and Moon depending— well, I guess it has to be Moon, because you want the big moon bat, right?
MOIYA: I do. I do. Although, I wouldn't— I wouldn't balk at being a sun lion, but moon bat definitely fits more into my personality.
ERIC: Yeah. Big, like, goddess moon bat feels right for you.
MOIYA: Yes. Yeah.
ERIC: Cool.
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: Moiya, thank you so much for coming on this Pokemon journey and teaching us all about societies around the world, uh, which is good. I feel like every time you come on and we— or I make you talk about Pokemon, I'm like, "I— I'm making Moiya do something she doesn't like." So, I'm glad that you're enjoying yourself.
MOIYA: That is not true, Eric. I— I do like Pokemon and I love talking to you. So talking to you about Pokemon is just a net positive experience.
ERIC: It's perfect. It's perfect. Moiya, if people really like listening to you talk and teaching them about stuff, uh, where can they find you or what can they, uh, what can they do?
MOIYA: You can do so much stuff if you like my— my thoughts or my voices. Um, I am available online @GoAstroMo. That's the best place to find me and my work on all of the platforms. But I, uh, wrote a book called The Milky Way that teaches you about the universe from the galaxy's point of view. I host a podcast about fictional world-building. Eric has been on it a couple of times. It is called Exolore and it's very fun. I host another podcast that's about space for people who are afraid of space, and Eric has not been on that one yet. Um, but we—
ERIC: Right now, only scientists have been on that show, so—
MOIYA: That's true.
ERIC: —I'm gonna be kicking down the door and being like, "Hey, y'all want to talk about pop culture?"
MOIYA: Yes. Um, you know what, Eric? If I want to do an episode on Star Wars, I might have you on,
ERIC: Oh, you're— I— I do not care about Star Wars, but I would love to talk about it.
MOIYA: Okay. Then never mind. Uh, but that is called Pale Blue Pod. And, uh, also if you are more interested in mythology, I host a YouTube show for PBS called Fate And Fabled, that is all about mythology from around the world. I'm very online.
ERIC: True.
MOIYA: I'm extremely Googleable. You can find anything about me.
ERIC: GoAstroMo everywhere.
MOIYA: Everywhere. Everywhere books are sold.
ERIC: I— it's so funny when you're like, "Oh, GoAstroMo." I'm surprised she couldn't get, like, AstroMoiya or something. And knowing that, like, every online astrologist or science— scientist—
MOIYA: Hmm.
ERIC: —or space scientist has ‘Astro-name’ as their Twitter name. I'm like, "Oh, no.
I can see why she needs to do it."
MOIYA: It's also because people do not know how to spell Moiya, and so I didn't want my whole name there.
ERIC: Oh, that's fair.
MOIYA: Yeah.
ERIC: No, that's totally fair. Yeah, for— for sure. Uh, every— go listen to Moiya’s stuff. I love Pale Blue Pod. Y'all should go check it out. It's such a good show.
MOIYA: Thank you. It's very cozy.
ERIC: Every time— every time I see— I see science, uh, thing, I'm just like, "This should be Moiya. Why is Moiya not doing this? She should be doing this."
MOIYA: From your mouth to Arceus' ears.
[laughter]
ERIC: Absolutely. This is WYFPATISSNAY, a show within Games and Feelings, which you already know. Uh, we'll be back to our regularly scheduled programming. Uh, Jasper will come on, and I think we're gonna talk about sports soon, so I'm really excited about that. That's gonna be fun.
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: Uh, yeah, you can check me out on the internet @el_silvero, E-L, underscore, S-I-L-V-E-R-O. My name if I was a lucho libre wrestler. Tell people about Games and Feelings and WYFPATISSNAY, it's fun. I like doing it, and it's great. Once again, Dr. Moiya McTier, DDS, Esquire, thank—
MOIYA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: —you so much for being on the show. And, Moiya, I'm gonna say the thing that I say every single episode, I choose you!
MOIYA: Oh!
ERIC: Friendship!
MOIYA: Friendship, that's beautiful. I love that. Thank you so much.
ERIC: And Cosmog, who's my new favorite boy.
MOIYA: Ooh, and Cosmo, will— will also love this edition.
ERIC: Cosmo and Cosmog will hang out.
MOIYA: Yes. Mm-hmm.
[theme song plays]
ERIC: Games and Feelings is produced by Eric Silver and edited and mixed by Mischa Stanton. The theme music is 'Return to French Toast Castle' by Jeff Brice. And the art was created by Jessica Boyd. Find transcripts for this episode, and all episodes, at our website, gamesandfeelings.com. Until next time, press X to enjoy the podcast.
Proofreader: SR