What Surprised You About Running an Independent Video Game Outlet? with Ben Hanson
A new podcast guest approaches! It’s MinnMax’s Ben Hanson! He’s joining Eric to answer questions about what it’s like running an independent video game outlet in 2023, easier-to-control video games for adults, and single-player board games.
Stuff We Talked About
- The Pokemon Master board game
Sponsors
- Eric Silver is the best gamesman in podcasting. Tell someone about him!
Find Us Online
- ask questions: gamesandfeelings.com/questions
- patreon: patreon.com/gamesandfeelings
- twitter: twitter.com/gamesnfeelings
- insta: instagram.com/gamesnfeelings
Credits
- Host, Producer, & Question Keeper: Eric Silver
- Permanent Guest: Jasper Cartwright
- Editor & Mixer: Mischa Stanton
- Music by: Jeff Brice
- Art by: Jessica Boyd
- Multitude: multitude.productions
About Us
Games and Feelings is an advice podcast about being human and loving all types of games: video games, tabletop games, party games, laser tag, escape rooms, game streams, and anything else that we play for fun. Join Question Keeper Eric Silver and a revolving cast of guests as they answer your questions at the intersection of fun and humanity, since, you know, you gotta play games with other people. Whether you need a game recommendation, need to sort out a dispute at the table, or decide whether an activity is good for a date, we’re your instruction manual. New episodes drop every other Friday.
Transcript
[theme song plays]
ERIC: Hello gamers! Welcome to Games and Feelings, an advice show about playing games, being human, and dealing with the fact that those games will involve other humans. I am your host and question keeper, Eric Silver. And if I'm really, really honest with myself, I would be voted out of Survivor before the merge because I trust someone way too hard, and then they flip on me, and their— the whole episode is about me saying like, ‘man, I think we have such a connection, like we're brothers.’ Jeff really is gonna let me have it, at— like he knows, but he's just gonna be really mean to me. Hey, Ben Hanson, if you're really honest with yourself, when would you get voted out of Survivor?
BEN: Gah! I think I'd be one of those first episodes weirdos. I'd be— I'd be one of those guys where it's like first episode you see him like crouched in the ferns like, ‘oh, my stomach!’ And then it just kind of the gory details are left unsaid, but eventually, everyone's like, this guy’s gotta go. Or—or here's, genuinely— I'm a big Survivor fan—
ERIC: Yeah.
BEN: —This is my nightmare. I think about this all the time is, I am terrible at learning how to do physical things.
ERIC: Sure.
BEN: You know, like, you know, I didn't learn how to ride a bike ‘til I was over 10. I just like— I cannot compute physical instructions. And so genuinely, I'd be at the first challenge and Jeff Probst would be like, ‘okay, first you gotta swing on this, and you got to balance this. Now make sure to put the puzzle piece in like this, before we do this…’ I would ask him to explain it so many times that eventually, I think they would just kick me off the show.
ERIC: They would definitely take a second— which they never do, because Survivor loves not showing, like, the guts. They would definitely take—
BEN: Right.
ERIC: —a second to like montage you asking questions. And be like, you know what, this is too good TV, we need to be— we need to have Ben going ‘so how does the rope go? When do we jump on?’
BEN: And it'd be— it'd be jump cut between me asking questions about the specifics of how it works and then just one of the jump cuts would just be me crying and confused. And then jump cut to me like, ‘okay, so we dig the puzzle piece out first?’ Like, that would be how it’d go.
ERIC: And then of course, during the challenge, you would do it too early, and Jeff would make you start all over.
BEN: And everyone would just stop and be like, ‘what are you doing, man? What are you doing?’ That is—I— ugh, I think about it every episode of Survivor. I think about how bad I would be on that show.
ERIC: That's really incredible. I thought you were gonna go in the direction where it's like, ‘I've never learned how to weave palm fronds, even though everyone knows you have to learn how to do that, I still don't know how.’ And that's why you would get kicked out. But you literally not knowing how to do the game is incredibly funny.
BEN: I could not compete.
ERIC: You would see—you would come back on redemption season, and you would still have the same problem.
BEN: Yeah, I'd be the first person to be booed by the fellow Survivor people on the island when I stepped off the boat onto the beach.
ERIC: It'd be a real problem because there is going to be a firefighter from Queens - because that's mandatory in every single season of Survivor - who's like, [in New York accent] ‘hey, I don't know what Ben's doing, this is a— you jump on the rope, then you carry the puzzle piece. I don't get it.’
BEN: [In New York accent] ‘He's trying to be funny. He keeps trying to talk to the video producers, I don't care for it.’
ERIC: ‘He said he's a video producer, but why does he not know how to do this?’
BEN: ‘He's like trying to be like the Deadpool of Survivor, like go behind the scenes but it just sucks. We all think he stinks.’
ERIC: ‘He must be lying. I think he's a banker and I'm really worried. I'm really worried about him— having him on my tribe.’
BEN: Do you really watch Survivor, man?
ERIC: Oh, I love Survivor. Yeah, absolutely.
BEN: Oh, God. Oh, who's your pick this season?
ERIC: I really like Danny, who is the fire— who is the firefighter. He is a good guy and in the new reboot, I knew we would get into this and I'm concerned about talking about this. Okay, so for those of you who don't watch Survivor, Survivor is a longtime thing where people just get marooned on an island, have to do challenges, and vote each other out, right? After season 40, they did like a soft reboot, where they kind of —
BEN: Right.
ERIC: —changed a lot about the— the show and it's very like self-reflexive now. Like it's about Survivor being Survivor. And the thing—
BEN: Yup.
ERIC: —that bothers me the most is that, although— and which is very good, but I think that someone put in Jeff's head that like Survivor’s a microcosm of society. And now they're casting for more diverse people - which is great - both upon sexual and racial lines, is incredible. I like seeing people's experiences. And of course, like the people who win challenges are no longer like people who have that V in their hips, you know?
BEN: Right, right.
ERIC: Like they're always the people who win. But the thing that they are now homogeneous about is casting for people who like Survivor.
BEN: Yes.
ERIC: And which I think is ruining the original pitch of reality shows, which is like these are supposed to be real people doing extraordinary things. And now they're like Survivor fans only. And that really kind of bothers me. So I don't really like a lot of people anymore.
BEN: Really— I think the cast is really good this season. Has been the last couple of seasons. Yeah, they've— they've explicitly said that like ‘we only cast survivor diehards.’ But the interesting thing is like this is becoming more and more common because, you know, they've been in Fiji for the last 300 years and they only have—
ERIC: Right.
BEN: —so many puzzle designs they can do. And so like, it's interesting to see that the cast members now that are like making 3D prints of all the Survivor puzzles because they know what's coming up, and they practice it and practice it. And they know like the physical things, and they build them in their backyard and stuff. So that is that next level of preparation where it's like, I don't know how you get around it. I mean, they've designed a hell of a show here, but it is a little bit in a rut.
ERIC: Yes.
BEN: And then when they try and shake it up with a big twist, the fanbase hates it. It's like ‘Jeff Probst, just let ‘em play the damn game! It's about strategy, it's not about constant twists, man.’
ERIC: Yeah, it's just twist after twist after twist. They're like— they're doing too much. But yeah, I'm not really sure how you solve the like, oh, ‘I have access to a 3D printer so I did all the puzzles’—
BEN: Right.
ERIC: —thing. Is like that—that shouldn't be— that should be wei— that's weird to prep for this show like that.
BEN: It is. But also I'm weirded out by the people who don't prep. Like the people who get on Survivor—
ERIC: Sure.
BEN: They don't get a blow dart in the middle of the night and then wake up on the island. So the people who are like on that show and they’re like, ‘I don't know how to start a fire,’ or ‘I don't know how to swim.’ I was like, you had months, right?
ERIC: That's specifically.
BEN: Like, what are you doing, practice!
ERIC: But that—to me, that's the difference between like doing the survival, which is like, you should know how to swim. Anyone who goes on a reality show and doesn't know how to swim, I'm like, there's going to be a challenge where you swim. Even if it's like Flavor of Love or something, it's like, you're gonna have to go swim, and the producers will own you for it. So that's one, but I— like doing Survivor, the show stuff, that really gets in my craw a little bit. I'm like, can you just let it—just let it slide. Like that doesn't make me think you're cool that you 3D printed a puzzle, and now you're really good at it.
BEN: Also, I— I feel humbled every time people on the show make a reference to a past season. They're like, ‘this is just like—
ERIC: Right.
BEN: —Michael, Episode 6, Season 14.’ It's like how the hell? Like I consider myself a cyber—Survivor fan, but I already forgot who won last season. Like it's very much a fascinating thing for that hour every week. And then I kind of forget the details very quickly.
ERIC: No, I—I 100% agree. I'm like, I liked it when that guy did that thing, and when they— when she voted out her mom, that was neat. I don't know her name.
BEN: Yup. I liked when the person made the fake immunity idol that was just a stick and then convinced everybody that it was an immunity idol, that's a Hall of Famer.
ERIC: Yeah, that was tight. I don't know your name.
BEN: Right.
ERIC: We're gonna end Survivor talk quickly. But I want to say, Kane, who is on the current season of Survivor right now loves Dungeons and Dragons and really is making everyone still think that we're big fucking dorks and dweebs. It's really bad for all of us who play tabletop RPGs.
BEN: I—you know, this last episode, I had the first inkling of like, I think Kane feels like he could win this thing.
ERIC: Yeah.
BEN: Like I know he's not in a good spot as of the time of this recording and whatnot, so maybe he's already out. But there's like, he seems like that level of player who's like smart enough, but just under the radar enough. You got to thread that needle. It seems like somebody like Kane could be winning this season.
ERIC: No, I agree with you. I think Kane thinks he's too smart.
BEN: Yes.
ERIC: Because there are much smarter people who are being much more chill about it and not telling Jeff Probst, ‘wow, this sword is like from Dungeons and Dragons.’
BEN: Yeah, exactly. I'm sorry— I'm sorry he's bringing your kind down.
ERIC: Yeah, all of the work we did by making everyone think that Matt Mercer is just so, so neat with his looking like an elf at all times. Well, Ben Hanson, I'm so happy you're here because I love everything that you make over at MinnMax.
BEN: Thank you.
ERIC: Can you tell the people what MinnMax is?
BEN: I think I can. MinnMax is an independent media outlet that's about games, friends, and getting better. Crowdfunded on that there Patreon.
ERIC: Hell yeah. And what I love about it is that you do so much stuff underneath the MinnMax umbrella.
BEN: Thank you.
ERIC: Like— and I ended up consuming all of it through the podcast feed. Yeah, what are all the different products that you— you put out?
BEN: Oh, boy, this is— this is a mess, yes. So the MinnMax Show Podcast is our flagship podcast that's kind of the— the main thing, the— the hub of the bicycle wheel or whatever. And so that's the main podcast, that's completely free for everybody. Most of our stuff is available for free. We don't put too much behind the, uh, the Patreon paywall. So that's our biggest show. Then we have something called the Deepest Dive, which is our multipart game club series, where we take a big game, like the most recent one we did was Resident Evil 4 remake. We take a game like that, split it up into three chunks, and then have quote-unquote, “the best, most thorough discussion about this game on the internet.” Where we play through it and we just have like you know, a three-hour-long discussion about the first six chapters of Resident Evil 4. And we're only so smart. And so the secret weapon is we also collect hundreds and hundreds of comments from Patreon supporters, boil it down to the best. And so we're reading their insightful comments along the way. So 100% ripped off - not the community questions part - but it's 100% ripped off from One Up. One Up used to do this—
ERIC: Oh, man.
BEN: —back in the day if you remember them. You know they did it for like Shadow of the Colossus and Psychonauts, and it's kind of that EGM One Up crew used to do it, and I always loved it. And so we started doing it at Game Informer. And then I was at Game Informer for nine years and then left to form MinnMax, and so we kind of carried it over and called it the Deepest Dive. Then maybe our third biggest show is a—we have a show called Trivia Tower, which is a monthly trivia competition. It's all game trivia, and we usually have a guest from around the game industry come on, and then we invite everybody to compete for game codes and bunch of other stuff, and it's a very intense time, but very fun. It's all through our Discord, there.
ERIC: Incredible. And then you like— you stream on Twitch, you have even more YouTube content. And now, of course, that also gets filtered through the Patreon feed. I— it’s— It's a modern way to get yourself immersed in video game media. Like, not everyone consumes podcasts or YouTube or Twitch. But hitting them in all that di—or hangs out in Discord, I guess is the main way of them, like enjoying themselves. But you hit all of these places at the same time. I feel like that just comes from experience.
BEN: That's interesting, I hadn't really thought about that. But yeah, I guess we cover all the bases. We could probably hit Twitch a little bit harder. We don't really have any shows that are fully focused on like engaging with Twitch. You know, we do streams and a— we have another show, that's called New Show Plus, that we stream every week. And that's turned out to be kind of like a secret weapon, where it started out with, we would just play games every week and call it the Great GOATY Hunt. And that was kind of the idea. But eventually, we got to the point of like, we're playing games, and it's a fine time and Leo Vader on our team had the very good way of putting it where he's like, ‘you know, the thing about those streams is, there's not a lot of magical moments happening.’ It's a lot of like, the first hour of a new game, and maybe we're lukewarm on it, you know? But there's no good like laugh or memorable moments. And so then him and Ana Diaz, they were doing a stream, and then they realized like, oh, ‘we should just— instead of playing’ - I think it was like the demo for Monster Hunter Rise - ‘like, how about we just go into the eShop and just look at weird games in the eShop,’ right? And so then that kind of got the ball rolling for like, ‘okay, what if we have a show, that's just called New Show Plus, and the premise of the show is, every week, we pitch four new potential shows for MinnMax and then we let Patreon supporters vote on which one we create or continue.’ And so if it's a really good show, it'll keep getting voted in. But eventually, it'll get defeated by something else. And so it allows for like constant variety on our YouTube channel and Twitch channel. And also, I think a lot of outlets get stuck in the rut of like, ‘alright, we started doing this show, it's a pretty good idea, the community loves it. Now, how long do we do it for,’ you know? And eventually, people are gonna get a little bit tired of it. But then when we kill it, people will get mad about it, because like, ‘oh, I was such a big fan.’ And so having like this variety generator within the system of MinnMax has allowed for like us to get really weird. We've started doing a lot of like live— live streams. But like in the real world, where we'll just go out and stream from our phone—
ERIC: Oh, sure.
BEN: —and stuff. And so we played a bunch of sports last summer, or like the show that's running currently, is us just going on walks in nature and stuff. And so it's a nice way to constantly surprise people. But then also literally, the votes sometimes come down to like one vote. So it's like, if you're a Patreon supporter, you can make or break—
ERIC: You got to vote.
BEN: —this entire wave of content, you know?
ERIC: Yeah, you gotta be involved. If you're a patron or you're in the Discord.
BEN: Right.
ERIC: I think that stuff only comes with experience of being like an independent creator or doing something that you started creating yourself. Like we talk about this all the time at Multitude.
BEN: Yeah, yeah.
ERIC: Of like the— is like how do we make sure that a podcast is fresh? And in terms of like, not even media, but making sure that people enjoy what you're doing is like, how do you make the show as much of itself as possible, and make people excited? And it's just something that we think about all the time. So—
BEN: Yeah.
ERIC: —for video game media, as you said, you worked at Game Informer for a long time. And then you started MinnMax, a lot of people right now worked at a videogame outlet for a long time and either left or got laid off. And now they're doing their own thing, either an individual or as a group. But you've been doing this since 2019, which like is ancient, I think, almost?
BEN: Oh, that's so weird. Yeah.
ERIC: We—we have the same experience of being like, oh, yeah, we decided to make like a media collective and that was fun. What— so what surprised you either in a good or a bad way about running an independent video game outlet?
BEN: Ah, um, maybe this sounds too dramatic, but like maybe how emotional it is? Maybe how—
ERIC: Oh that is not dramatic at all. That's so fucking real.
BEN: Okay. Yeah, it's like, you know if people would light up Game Informer, online or something, it's like I get it, they've been around forever. It's like, I still take it personally, because, you know, my heart was really in that job in a lot of ways.
ERIC: Yeah.
BEN: But like, seeing people, like get things wrong about MinnMax, and be like, ‘Oh, MinnMax sucks because of this.’ It's like— yeah, I do look for those comments too much.
ERIC: Oh, sure.
BEN: It's like, oh, God, it's just a— probably that gross level of like, ‘oh, wait, I kind of feel like I am MinnMax, because I'm pushing it so hard,’ you know, all the time and I spend so much time with it. And so it does feel like you're attacking a member of my family. And I'm not one of those people that jumps in there and argues in forums or YouTube comments, like I can let most of it roll.
ERIC: No, you can't be.
BEN: But it's just like, yeah, how— how sensitive it is. And also, I gotta say, a lot of it's like - this is getting too weird and dark immediately—
ERIC: Do it, do it, we're here.
BEN: It's a lot—it's a lot of like worrying.
ERIC: Oh, sure.
BEN: It’s a lot of worrying about everybody, and like, I think— I think we're in a good spot, knock on wood and stuff. But it is just like that feeling of like, okay, we're building up this system of content of hopefully funneling people towards community engagement and towards the Patreon. But then also on the quote-unquote, “back end”, you know, like, I'm the only full-time person and then we contract out with a bunch of wonderful people.
ERIC: Yeah.
BEN: To be as efficient as possible. And so it's a lot of just worrying about like, okay, Leo said he was too busy to do anything this week, but I'm going to DM him to see like, ‘hey, could you jump on the podcast for 20 minutes to talk about this?’ Hopefully, he won't get mad like, it's that level of just like, is everyone good? Is the system holding? It's kind of like the weird tension within myself, you know?
ERIC: That is really interesting about the way that MinnMax is constructed that it's like you and then everyone else is just like, there. It's like everyone is like permanent guests. That’s similar like here on— on Games and Feelings, like Jasper, who is usually here, but he's on his honeymoon. Hi, Jasper, I hope you're doing well. Like he—
BEN: Hi, Jasper!
ERIC: —we invited him— I invited him on because he's awesome. But he's also doing like, two other shows. And he's also like, in the UK being a voice actor, and all this other stuff. I’m like, ‘yeah, Jasper, you're my permanent guest,’ but I feel like I'm running the show and I'm so devoted to this. Do you think that, like, the way that MinnMax is constructed is leading to that worry, or it's like you care about it so much? It’s like the economics probably makes it this way, but then also the way that it's constructed, also is leading to this particular feeling.
BEN: I think it's the way it's constructed. And like that has allowed for, I think us to be really nimble. And this is —okay, again, I'm setting everything up in dark words, but humor me–
ERIC: Ben, this show is called Games and Feelings. I think that you’re— you’re good.
BEN: Okay, well here— There is a part of me that worries like with the structure, and I think we're doing well. But it is that weird feeling of like, okay, I'm making most of these calls, I'm running most of these systems behind the scenes, all that stuff. And so it allows us to change things to be really nimble. And like, you know, we have—
ERIC: Of course.
BEN: —a bunch of meetings and always checking with people to make sure they're on the same page. But we often— I find that situation of like, ‘hey, I've been stressing out about this Patreon tier, what do y'all think about this? Do we change this wording from this to this?’ And absolutely, naturally, people were like ‘I—I don't even know what you're talking about man. Like, if you want to do it, go ahead and do it,’ you know?
ERIC: Yeah.
BEN: And so that's allowed us I think, to iterate on a lot of stuff and improve. I think we've gotten better and better, as MinnMax has been around. Compared to, you know, like a larger media outlet that has, you know, a bunch of people up top and kind of choices and decisions get stuck in a little bit of stasis, you know?
ERIC: Oh, did you have any experience with that in your nine years working at Game Informer?
BEN: I mean, a little bit yeah, yeah. I mean—and but even that was like you know, we had a pretty clear Editor in Chief, you know—
ERIC: Sure.
BEN: —so it wasn't exactly that same thing. But you know, trying to keep it as democratic as possible while still hopefully being agile and I think it's worked out well, but it is just a little bit that feeling every once in a while of just worrying like ‘oh, God. Am I just running with things too much? Is it too much “the Ben Hanson show”?’ And so trying to like, get other voices out there is such a relief. You know, we just did a stream this last week. We streamed The Urbz: Sims in the City.
ERIC: Oohh.
BEN: Have you heard of this game?
ERIC: I—oh, did that come out, like a while ago?
BEN: Oh, very much so. Yeah, this was like 2001.
ERIC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yes. It was like supposed to be like ‘Cool Sims.’
BEN: It was—yeah, Sims for the— for the hip youth on console. And so we streamed that, and it was just a bizarre nightmare of a game. But it was really nice because we had Sarah Podzorski and Ana Diaz, like in the studio.
ERIC: Oh, hell yeah.
BEN: And so it was great. And it was just like, it was a lovely feeling, and this has happened a lot, of just that idea of like, ‘okay, these two like are buddy buddies, and I can sit back. Like this is their stream.’ And so like, it's a relief to me, every time we run into this situation where it's like, oh, it's just a nice reminder that like, I can step back like these people are so good and so fun, and they have a good rapport. Especially like in person and studio it’s like— pfft, this is—they’re running the tone of this thing. And it's nice— it's healthy, I think, every once in a while to realize that it's okay to step back and people have got it.
ERIC: Oh, for sure. I mean, you realize that every single one of your experiences has kind of led you to where it's at. Like I can see where your experience from Game Informer and doing this for this number of years, like, ‘you know what? We do need to be agile. And the way— only way to do that is if one person is making the call, which is me.’ Even if you are asking other people for opinions, like that's I— that totally makes sense to me.
BEN: Yeah, I think so. And it's just, you know, we've—we kind of fell a little bit away from it this last year, but you know, I was trying to have a pretty big refresh for our content, like every year in January. And you know, the model— the dopey model I always reference is Sid Meier's philosophy on Civilization of dividing into thirds—
ERIC: Yeah
BEN: —where you keep one third, change one third, and then add one third new stuff. And so it's like, okay, if we just did that every year, like this Patreon, and this outlet would just get better and better, and smarter and smarter, hopefully. And so, first couple years are some pretty drastic stuff. I guess this last year, yeah it's like okay, we stopped doing our show Better Quest, stopped doing a couple other shows. This last year, actually, it was like we stopped doing a couple of shows. Maybe like we would rotate through shows every Tuesday. And it got to the level of like, I feel like people are more stressed out by this show than the benefits of the community are really showing. So it's okay to let it drop. And so having a philosophy of just you know, being a little bit on the brutal end - not like we're killing shows left and right - but being on the brutal end of like, okay, we are independent, we are small like that allows us the freedom, we should lean into it and not get stuck into a rut and always try and think of the impact of the shows. Because it's so easy with an outlet, to get sucked into just doing a lot of shows that technically are content. But it really— is it really changing anybody's mind? And you know, not to point fingers, or be mean. But I just think of like, getting stuck in the rut of like, if we just did a spoiler cast discussion for every Marvel show, every episode, every Star Wars show every episode, it's like that is— that is a lot to focus on. And people would like it, and people would be there for it. At the same time. I don't think a single person would be like, ‘this person's thoughts on Mandalorian are so good, I gotta support this Patreon.’ Like, it's just there's a lot of busy work that you have to be smart to avoid.
ERIC: Yeah, I mean, only when— it's like, do you want to be the person who makes emergency podcasts all the time? Maybe, maybe not. I—you got to make a choice for yourself—
BEN: Right.
ERIC: —and why people like you. Why people like the thing you're making. That makes a ton of sense to me.
BEN: Yeah. And I think we're at a really healthy spot with our community. We're, you know, on YouTube, there's always horrific comments, it's tough to avoid.
ERIC: Wooo!
BEN: We're at like, a level of like, size, where people seem to be by and large understanding when we want to change directions on something, when we wanna iterate on something like, by far, the biggest piece of feedback I've ever received from our community is like, ‘hey, slow down a bit. Take— take more time for yourself, relax.’ It's like, okay, that is just a nice reminder of what we're trying to do here of making just a smarter and more sustainable outlet.
ERIC: I think people since 2020, and we saw this all across Multitude. Where like, everyone's Patreon went up by like, 50 to 100%. Because everyone's like, oh, we have to support the things we like or then they'll go away.
BEN: Right.
ERIC: In the way that like everyone realized that like the restaurants and small businesses they loved, were like run by real people and need money to exist. People really understood that.
BEN: Right.
ERIC: And I think that people have been bringing that— like listeners and audience members have been— just have leveled up their like emotional, and like, economic intelligence since 2020. And it's—it's really incredible to see.
BEN: Yeah, absolutely. And it's still— you know, we message— so I message everybody who supports us on Patreon, and I just ask them like, ‘hey, how'd you find us? What type of content do you want in the future? What made you jump in to support us on Patreon?’ And I'm always fascinated by like, yeah, some people are like, ‘oh, I wanted to unlock the podcast version of The Deepest Dive.’ That's, you know, pretty common stuff. ‘I wanted to compete in Trivia Tower,’ that's great. By and large, it's people being like, ‘I just—you had good vibes. It's a good crew you got over there—’
ERIC: Hell yeah.
BEN: —’And yo guys a're like positive about games, and so I wanted to support that.’ And so trying to— the part that you can lose sleep about is how do you have a sustainable business where the foundation is generally good vibes and people get along? Like, it seems like the easiest thing in the world, but then if you overthink it, that's where it becomes a nightmare of like, our business model is feeling kind of good. [makes choking noise]
ERIC: Hey, that's much better than, ‘oh, I have to— everyone likes looking at my face, and my face needs to look good.’ So that's—that's not bad.
BEN: That is an interesting point. Yeah, I think that's fair. But yeah, thank you. You know, we talked before about Multitude stuff and you had some—some good advice along the way.
ERIC: Oh, yeah.
BEN: So thank you for being a sounding rod, is that the phrase?
ERIC: Yeah, you get to you—you move those things around, and you look for water and good advice, right?
BEN: Yeah, that's it. Sure, divining rod. That's it.
ERIC: Yeah. Yeah. Your dou—I'm dowsing you with unsolicited advice.
BEN: Hang on - a dowsing and divining rod? Are those the same thing?
ERIC: Dowsing and divining rod are the same, I think.
BEN: Why do they have two words?
ERIC: I— I— the Dowsing Rod specifically is looking for water, but I think a divining rod does lots of stuff?
BEN: Okay, and— but none of them are— actually work?
ERIC: Uhhhh… depends how much you believe in ley lines. Ben, how much do you believe in ley lines?
BEN: Okay, here's—here's a weird distant memory. I don't believe in ley lines. However, I do remember, you know, I grew up like in rural Minnesota, out in the woods and whatnot. And I remember being young and my dad had somebody over with a dowsing rod and it was just a stick. Just like Survivor—
ERIC: Oh, yeah.
BEN: —it was just a frickin’ stick. And he was like finding the water, whatever. And then it’s ‘a stick will turn down when you find the water.’ And my memory of it - I was probably like six - but my memory is that they handed me the stick and I felt it too. But now there's no universe where that's accurate. I don't know what was going on there.
ERIC: I have no idea. I think it's just like it's Ouija board vibes where like—
BEN: Yeah.
ERIC: —you don't know what's happening. Is it your friend moving it? Is it something else? Do you remember it's just a game from Hasbro, it doesn't actually have any spiritual powers? I mean, like if it works, it works, man. I don't know that's ultimately where I settle on supernatural stuff. I'm like, ‘whatever you believe, and if it's helping us I'm fine because I'm lost in the woods and I need some water. So I'm okay with that.’
BEN: That's right. But just make sure you don't secretly find the ghost well.
ERIC: Oh, no!
BEN: And you start digging, and it’s just like Ghostbusters and they just shoot out of the ground. You gotta be really scared of that. But anyway - sorry, Multitude! Thank you for, you know— sounding board! That's the phrase I was looking for.
[theme plays]
ERIC: Hey, it's Eric, and I picked up some snacks for Games and Feelings. I brought cupcakes. They were leftover from my birthday. But I actually like them in the fridge overnight because the icing gets all dense, and it's cold and I kind of like the temperature. But seriously, I have been bowled over from my feelings, from the WYFPATISSNAY episode from last week. I had originally asked if like, ‘hey, does someone want to host this and do it for me?’ And Mischa and Amanda really crushed it. It made me feel incredibly special. And all the people who did the voicemails, I just wasn't anticipating it was such a surprise, it was a secret. Man, I love secrets and it made me feel great. So I'm still reeling from that. So thank you to everyone who felt something about it. I certainly did. And I think, yeah, just it's good stuff. We have a lot of fun stuff planned for Games and Feelings, especially because our one-year anniversary is coming up, which is honestly wild. So if you want to share something with us about, you know how much you've enjoyed the show over the last year, please, either like comment on the Patreon or tweet at us @gamesnfeelings. Or on the Instagram @gamesnfeelings. Or send us an email or you can hit me up on Twitter, any of that stuff we— is wonderful. Another note on that is that Jasper will be back in a few episodes. So we had a backlog of him to get ready for when he left to go get married. Those episodes just released. But now we are recording new episodes and it's going to come out in a few weeks. So this is the middle period where Jasper was away, where I did some stuff on my own. But don't worry, Jasper is going to come back and you'll see him soon.
You can support this wonderful independent podcast and join the Patreon at patreon.com/gamesandfeelings. Just like our newest patron, Louisa and Felix, it's a joint account, it's adorable. Please, we need your support to continue to do this wonderful show that we love doing oh so, so, so much. Just throw us some money. Support your—your favorite creators. Just like producer-level patrons Polly Burrage, Kelsey Duffy, and Peyton who are usually free and you can just like text them if you want to play a board game. They're around, they're totally down. patreon.com/gamesandfeelings. Throw some money to your podcast Witcher.
Once you're done with Games and Feelings, you can listen to the— many of the other shows here on Multitude. I think you'll like Exolore. If you ever wondered what life was like on a planet different than your own, or how writers create your favorite fictional worlds, this is the show for you. Astrophysicist, folklorist, and rising star with all the puns intended, Dr. Moiya McTier explores fictional worlds by building them with a panel of expert guests, interviewing professional world builders, or reviewing the merits of worlds that have already been built. I've been on the show a few times, one talking about Pokemon and one where I'm talking about Verda Stello, the world for Join the Party, and she is just so smart and wonderful. So anything that Moiya makes, you should go check out. You'll learn, you'll laugh, you'll gain an appreciation of how special our planet really is. So subscribe today by searching Exolore in your podcast, app, EXO, E X O, LORE, L O R E, or go to exolorepod.com.
This episode is sponsored by me! Eric Silver is the best GM in podcasting and the best games creator in podcasting. So if you're on a social media platform, especially Reddit or a specific Discord, and this comes up, make sure to tell them about me. It certainly helps when you share the show and you tell your friends in like group chats and stuff. But these public and semi-public spaces are really the way to get you know, grassroots going. I want to be out there on other shows and platforms doing the stuff that you love, and your promotion can make that happen. [like a jingle] Eric Silver, tell them about me so I can make more stuff that you like. [regular cadence] And now, back to the games.
[theme plays]
ERIC: No, truly I mean, I really like MinnMax, we found it. I was the one, I started— I was looking for more video game shows because I was kind of missing it. I was looking for more and someone recommended MinnMax. And I'm like, oh I want everything that you have in my podcast feed coming out.
BEN: Wow. Okay.
ERIC: And—
BEN: What’d you find first?
ERIC: I think I found the original—I found the original MinnMax show, and this was also when you started adding folks, like when Jacob Geller and Janet Garcia on - past Games and Feelings guests. And Sarah Podzorski is such a breath of fresh air in being— in listening to people talk about video games. That um—and Kelsey Lewin as well, is just incredible. So much information coming out of her. It’s like oh, I really like this. And then I'm like, oh, I can find The Deepest Dive and then I started getting really into the— listening to the Deepest Dive. I've listened to the Mario 64 one probably like three times because it just—
BEN: Wait, really?
ERIC: —it makes me feel so— it's just like a good feeling. I love hearing about it.
BEN: That's— that is one of my favorite Deepest Dives because it’s really bizarre. Like it's Mario 64, we had a good conversation about it, talked about for hours and hours and hours. But I remember that was maybe the most like silly—
ERIC: Yes.
BEN: —structurally episode or like series of episodes that because it was like, I still think it's weird because it was Dan Ryckert from Giant Bomb, and then Ana Diaz and then like, my childhood frien—
ERIC: Your childhood friend, Ron. Yeah.
BEN: Because like what— those four I swear to God, if I like had a party, and the four of us were there, most of them would be convinced, like, ‘I don't think I've ever really talked to this other person' like, no, no, you talked about Mario 64 for so many hours and it was weird and fun.
ERIC: No, I mean, but that's fair. I think that each deepest dive needs to have their own vibe. And I think people address it. Which is— shout-out to everyone who writes questions here for Games and Feelings, like getting solicitations from what they want you to talk about makes sense. And for just Mario 64, even though I think you released it at the time when the reboot pack came out on Switch.
BEN: Right, 3D Upstart.
ERIC: Yeah, that is like, oh, but it's still like that one goofy game everyone remembers from playing it in middle school or high school or whatever. And that makes sense—
BEN: Yup.
ERIC: As compared to like, I don't know doing God of War, Ragnarok, as trying to like be the deepest conversation that comes out immediately, then it becomes a little bit more traditional, that mak— As opposed to— or Chrono Cross, when you're trying to play like an old RPG, like all those have different vibes and the audience tells you what vibe to do as you address those specific questions. And that—that totally made sense to me.
BEN: Yeah, and I think that's right. Yeah. It's always interesting just to see, you know, how those deepest dives do. They vary so much like we di—we had a really good one for Like a Dragon: Ishin! and just people weren't grabbing onto it. It's like man, the Yakuza series, that's perfect for like a game club format. It was built for that. We had a great crew like Michael Higham, Jacob Geller, and Leo and Sarah Podzorski. And it's like, God, it's just sales-wise, I don't know? Like some people really grab on to some Deepest Dives and not others. Not even a matter of their quality, but just like who's clicking through the front door.
ERIC: Yes.
BEN: And so it's always fascinating to see. And then like, you know, the—the sweetest comments that we get are people who are just like, ‘thank you so much for going this in-depth, like no one else is doing it.’ And it is like an interesting thing to try and express and convey to the community, just like yeah, the reason nobody else is doing this is because it's financially stupid. Like, if you're running a big games website like—
ERIC: But we're not, that's the point, though, we're not.
BEN: I know. Oh, absolutely. But people are used to that type of coverage. And so like the idea of IGN—
ERIC: Sure.
BEN: —devoting dozens of hours to a discussion about Like a Dragon: Ishin! it's like— there is no universe where we can sell anything with that. Let's—we absolutely can't do it. But it's like oh, for us, it does make sense if people want to unlock the podcast version, and then it pays for it, and it's a done deal.
ERIC: Exactly. I think the thing about podcasting, and I think it's so good about folding it into this constellation of—of content you make. And I think about this all the time with podcasting is like, podcasting is more about creating a community of people who like your thing. It's like, um, I compare it to late-night shows. It's like, I'm going to turn on Johnny Carson at 11:30. Because that's what I do in my life. I come home, I have dinner. I—we do whatever with the family. And at 11:30, I take off my—my hat and my suspenders and then I watch Johnny Carson. And I think that that's very similar to what people think about podcasting. Which is like, okay, the show comes out at the same day at the same time every week—
BEN: Definitely.
ERIC: —and then this content flow comes in. And it's worth it to have something that has these specific people. I want to say, just to point out that that one - Like a Dragon: Ishin! - is like, if you're at a big company, having people with those specific skill sets, and then like trying— but then if you didn't have that specific skill set of like Sarah, who has a—who can like speak Japanese and has a lot of experience with like the history of that which she was explaining. And then Jacob Geller and his incredible ability to like, understand fiction and stories, like—
BEN: Right.
ERIC: Think about— you would have to hire those people, and they would have to willingly work at like, big media corporation, where they're worried about getting laid off at all times. And then if you got— tried to get a guest on, they'd be like, ‘oh, well, big media corporation needs to pay me a bunch of money,’ because they’re deserved— because they deserve to be paid.
BEN: Right.
ERIC: And then it's—it's like when it's a bunch of people talking about a thing, it makes sense as the value proposition for your own thing, as you said, like, ‘oh, we're people who will do this.’ And then you have the kind of people who might actually come together who have really specific skill sets and you can slot them together. Like, that just makes sense to me, when we're making games content, we should have experts.
BEN: You—right. And just let people follow their passion.
ERIC: Exactly.
BEN: But then, you know, hopefully not leaning too much into that idea of like, ‘well, it's fun to podcast about games and how about you do it for nickels?’ You know, like trying to find that level of like, we want to do— we want to follow our hearts and do what we want to do. But then make sure we're not exploiting people because - don't tell anyone, I would— I would do this all for free. Maybe not all of it. I would do a lot of MinnMax stuff absolutely for free. Like it's just— it's—it's overall fun. And so I— trying to keep everything in perspective is the challenge.
ERIC: Yeah, but that's the vibe. I mean, that's the good vibes you're talking about. That's why people pay, because you would do this for free, and they want it.
BEN: Ohh, it's so weird, but you're right, I think.
ERIC: Exactly. I—but then again, it's like, ‘oh, you want to talk about Like a Dragon: Ishin!? I'm JD Pennypacker, the executive who owns big media company. And Ben, you need to go film some video of some guy who my son thinks is neat, because that's— he tells me all my content decisions.’ Like I—what are you gonna do?
BEN: Right, right. Someone needs to write this news story about how this game has gone gold, and it's swinging onto store shelves. Like what are we doing every— what are we doing? And so I—I—
ERIC: Ben, if you're not filming web three, what are you doing? Come on.
BEN: Right, that's it. No, but I—I get stressed out too much about the idea of like, well, independent games media - that's the future where it's worked well for us, and we're like, slowly growing, it's really great to be able to expand things. And hopefully, make great calls as we're growing. But then at the same time, it does freak me out of like, I— I like big classic sites. I don't want sites to go away.
ERIC: Right.
BEN: And also, this is probably paradoxical, but like, the idea of people going to a big site just to build up their quote-unquote, “brand” and then split—
ERIC: Sure.
BEN: —off and do like a crowdfunded thing. It grosses me out, even though I guess it's my life. But it grosses me out just in that idea of like people walking into a big job just being that— Is it narcissistic, what's the— is that the right way to look at it?
ERIC: [sighs]I think the people who do it now are doing it like they're— like in a post-apocalyptic world, and they're doing whatever to survive.
BEN: Yes.
ERIC: I feel the same way.
BEN: Right.
ERIC: But if I think about it for two seconds I'm like, it's unsustainable to work at a big media company. And like, if you're willing to put yourself through getting laid off, just for your brand, like, more power to you, I guess. You're like, I know what you mean. But at the same time, it's like this is the world we've— we've left for people, you know.
BEN: I guess so. Yeah. I think it just more than narcissistic. That's not the right way to put it. I think it's just like the idea of ego. I feel like there's ego built into that.
ERIC: Sure. I— no, I totally agree with you.
BEN: You're right. It's like yeah, if you're in that situation and you can do it. Absolu—I mean, there's a lot of people - no pointing fingers - and I look at them, I'm like, wait, what are you doi—-? What—what—why aren't you splitting off and doing things independently? Like you have a big enough of a following, you have a certain niche. I don't understand why you're still attached to this giant site that just doesn't understand what's going on here.
ERIC: Because they have a salary and health care that's responsible for—
BEN: Yup, exactly.
ERIC: —someone else. I mean, I—you can think about it from so many different angles, but we're doing the different thing. And I can't begrudge the other person. Even though I'm like, you can make your own decisions, you never have to talk to a boss ever again! Like you feel worried—
BEN: Right.
ERIC: —but man, don't you don't want JD Pennypacker telling you to go film web three, like you know?
BEN: Pennypacker, he is on a roll lately. I—I don't know what's going on with his home life, but he's been a real piece of work.
ERIC: Yeah, he's trying to buy Kotaku, it's wild.
BEN: No, it's amazing, like you know, we did— had an interview with Nextlander like Vinnie, Alex, and Brad over there.
ERIC: Sure. And Nextlander, for those of you don't know, Nextlander, the—before they were at Giant Bomb, but this was before their most recent shake up at Giant Bomb. They left a while ago and they were the ones who really set the table of what Gi— people understood Giant Bomb to be. And now they're starting this new thing called Nextlander. It was like the first big push of people leaving big video game places to do Patreon. But of course that was after Ben Hanson started MinnMax doing it.
BEN: Well I think Greg Miller from IGN was like the first real leap of faith when he started Kind of Funny.
ERIC: Yes—tha—
BEN: It’s like that entire crew.
ERIC: That—everything like before the pandemic feels like such an earl— like an err age. And then like after that started like pe—I think the— the golden age of people leaving—
BEN: That’s interesting.
ERIC: That's the only—that's the only dividing line. I'm not saying anything, about anything but—
BEN: Yeah, no, for sure. But then even like Danny O'Dwyer at NoClips. Like there’s a lot of interesting examples but it–
ERIC: NoClips—NoClips also great, which is wild. He the— Danny O'Dwyer is doing his own weird thing, too. Is like, ‘I'm gonna try to forge this path over here.’
BEN: Yeah. So talking to the Nextlander guys, like, you know, both in the interview and then we just had a general conversation before the interview, where they were kind of talking about how nervous they were about this entire thing. And it— just trying to convey to them like, ‘do you know how diehard the Giant Bomb fans are? Like, you guys will be fine.’ And they were genuinely convinced that like it was not going to be a success.
ERIC: Yeah.
BEN: Like it's mind-boggling. I don't know what is, you know, I think even in the interview, Vinnie Caravela is like I don't know, yeah, just being at a corporation that kind of gets your ego beaten down so much that you don't think—
ERIC: 100%.
BEN: —it could work. And then they launch it and they're at 9500 Patreon supporters still, I mean, it's just a mind-boggling success.
ERIC: I think about this a lot. Because you— now you're seeing like, people inside of companies starting Patreons to convince the higher-ups - I'm thinking about the one on Waypoint and the one from the Outside Xbox folks are doing that inside of Euro Gamer. I'm like, you're— you really got to show Pennypacker what that—it's literally just numbers, like I have a computer screen that says look at the numbers coming in because people like us. And even this is gonna go to you, you look that it's from us directly.
BEN: But I think about that stuff all the time of like, why some Patreons catch fire a little bit more than others. And it's like, how much of it is that kind of leap of faith and that feeling of we're all in.
ERIC: Yeah.
BEN: And so if someone's kind of splitting their bets, you know, riding the fence of like, ‘well, I have this Patreon but then also I have this other job’ like, is that the message - it doesn't quite click? There probably are a lot of examples of people that are wildly successful and are splitting the difference of like, ‘well, I have a full-time job and a Patreon’ that I don't factor in probably like tabletop scene, D&D scene, stuff like that.
ERIC: Yeah. That's— that's also complicated because now it's tied to Wizards of the Coast and a product by them. I want to talk about this so much. And Ben, you got to come on the eventual like, economics podcast I'm going to make Amanda, my wife and CEO of Multitude, start at some point to talk about, like independent stuff like this. Because it's again—
BEN: Yup.
ERIC: —It's like, what do you want to do? What do you value the most? Like, your ability to make stuff and see if people come through? Or do you want to stay at a company that gives you a salary, but then you get beaten down? Your ego gets beaten down? It's—it's— there's a lot of choices. And it's— I could talk about this literally forever. But Ben, I literally want to ask you some advice questions that people have sent in.
BEN: Sure. Yeah.
ERIC: Hell yeah. Truly, though, a— Ben, I do want to talk about this fucking forever.
BEN: No, I— It is fascinating to me. Maybe it's obnoxious to be so fascinated by it, but it's just like, it is just that weird thing of like, alright, you have independence and the outlet is north of sustainable, what do you do with it? You could go a million directions. And so just trying to always keep your eye on the ball, and trying to define what the ball is. Like that's the challenge.
ERIC: The thing I say all the time is every day we get to do this is a win. Because no one is my boss. And I'm not going to get laid off today. So just every day— every day that it's sustainable is good enough.
BEN: Yup. For sure.
ERIC: Ordinarily, we would do games that are giving us feelings, but we— the games that are giving us feelings is the games media and us working in it. So I think even though I did tell you to prepare one, I think we—we should move on. I will just say quickly dice— buying dice is great. And it— some of them are pretty, and that's what— something giving me feelings.
BEN: Alright, love it. Shout out to Jen Vincent, what is her dice company name? She was at Game Informer. Yeah, Yaniir is her company and she prints like amazing dice like Y A N I I R. She was a graphic designer at Game Informer. Now she's killing it in the dice game.
ERIC: Oh my god, I'm gonna look that up because I love dice because it's like the little clickety-clack rocks. I just—that is wonderful. I'm gonna— I'm absolutely gonna look that up.
BEN: I'll send it to you.
ERIC: Please, please. Alright, Ben, are you ready to try to help some people out in the Games and Feelings universe?
BEN: I think so.
ERIC: Hell yes. This first question is from Peyton, and I have to ask this question because Peyton is a producer-level patron. And remember, if you are a $10 patron or above, you get preferred questions here at Games and Feelings because it is—you're in the clear line, you're in the TSA PreCheck line of Games and Feelings. So I want to ask this question. Peyton says “hi.” Hi, Peyton. “My mom 43 has been dealing with some medical difficulties. And since I've been taking care of her, she's been asking me to help her get back into video games with all the downtime she has in recovery and being fully on leave from work. I've been letting her use my Switch, but she has a neurological disorder that means her hands can't always move fast enough to work the controllers for most of the games she wanted to try. I've looked at Adaptive controllers, but they're pretty expensive and unfamiliar to her, but she's determined to find a game she can play with what we have. Any suggestions for an easier-to-control game, that's not too ‘kiddish’ in her words, not mine, that might keep her interest? P.S. I really love and appreciate the show, and it really makes me feel seen and gives me a lot of great advice that I genuinely enjoy.” Thank you, Peyton, you're great!
BEN: That's very sweet. Oooh, the ‘kiddish’ thing, because my first instinct—
ERIC: Yes.
BEN: —was Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope, which is a strategy game that I love and you don't need super fast reflexes or anything. So like something in the tactics genre makes sense to me. But then you think about that, like Advance Wars Reboot Camp, but I guess if that's too kiddish?
ERIC: Advance Wars might be cool, especially because it comes out new, so you could show her a trailer of that. I think that what—
BEN: Right.
ERIC: —we're hitting on here for someone like Peyton's mom, who's getting back into video games is like, there's a thing in here that's like ‘platformers are the only types of video games that exist.’ And like just expanding out of that genre, I think is definitely the way to help. Mario + Rabbids might be good. And I think you should try to show that to your mom as well. It might be— seem a little too cartoonish because everyone thinks the Rabbids are cartoonish and fucking weird.
BEN: Yeah. What about City Skylines is on the Switch, right? It's a— I mean, this all depends on your mom's taste, I get it.
ERIC: Right.
BEN: But like an interesting little city builder, that's—that's adult as all hell.
ERIC: Yeah. City Skylines would be good. What—can you talk about that game a little bit?
BEN: It's basically Sim City. So it came out like in the wake of Sim City, 2013 disappointing a lot of people. And then it just—it came out as like, ‘hey, what if there's just this different game from a different publisher?’ And so this one is just a very smart city builder that they've just been improving on and improving on. It looks like yeah, the Switch version came out a couple years ago. And people say that it controls well, which is surprising that—
ERIC: That's interesting. Yeah. Especially having like a city builder on console like that. I actually asked Amanda, my wife and CEO of Multitude. She had a bunch of surgeries on her hand when she was a kid. And she also loves playing video games, but she's not good at like— now she can't do the platformings—
BEN: Okay.
ERIC: —and fast twitch muscle stuff because of her hand. So I asked her for a few suggestions. She said A Short Hike, just to introduce your mom to a different type of video game that exists. I think that would be really good. I think it's like $5, and it's really only like, two hours but she— Amanda said that you can kind of like beep and boop around, and like really stretch it out for five or more hours if you want to just like mess around.
BEN: Yeah.
ERIC: She suggested Stardew Valley, Amanda is a big Stardew Valley head.
BEN: Oh, yeah.
ERIC: Specifically for that is that you can turn on—there's an accessibility option called turning on hitbox, which explicitly shows you where you're going to put stuff with like a box. I think it shows you like the literal tile, where you're like, ‘oh, I'm going to use the shovel,’ or ‘I'm going to plant this thing.’ It literally shows you that thing. So it makes fine motor controls a little bit easier to like, highlight that thing. And a recent game that Amanda really likes is Potion Permit, where you're an alchemist in a town that's suspicious of alchemy. It's like fun— it’s like there— it's more of a visual novel in that way about the relationships you build. But also like you're gathering resources, and you're making potions. So there's a lot of— I think you should try to figure out what your mom likes in games now. What— what modern games makes her interesting, and then you can run down that path.
BEN: Yeah.
ERIC: Yeah.
BEN: The ‘kiddy’ thing, that's—that's a phrase I'm focusing on. So I was even thinking about— they have it on Switch, like Return of the Obra Dinn.
ERIC: Hell yeah. I was thinking that too.
BEN: Not a kiddy game, but just— you want a logic puzzle of trying to work through these insurance claims, but in a captivating way, like, maybe that's up her alley?
ERIC: That would be cool. I was also thinking about Professor Layton games if she was into puzzles. But then again, I'm worried that's a little bit too like, ‘wow, look at this British man with a hat.’
BEN: Yup. I think it might be. It might be.
ERIC: I've never played a Professor Layton game, but my only understanding is that he's just like, ‘look at my hat. I don't know how to move my hat around.’
BEN: Yep, the puzzles are mainly how do you put the hat on his head to fit better, it's just all hat related.
ERIC: It's like a Resident Evil inventory system where you gotta like slot it in to some sort of Tetris situation. Yeah, Ben, when you suggest games to people who don't really know games, like where do you— I just— as like a professional games person, where do you start?
BEN: Boy, I don't know. I mean, it's pretty rare I guess, that I'm talking to somebody who has no interest in games. So it's like, you just have to have some frame of reference for what they like. But Rock Band like, if you want to have the most fun possible with games, just get a group together and play Rock Band. I know that the instruments are like $14,000 now, or whatever the hell. But if you can get it together, Beatles Rock Band is still one of the greatest games of all time.
ERIC: Yeah. You— just bring your mom one of those like fake drum pads. So she's just fucking wailing on it, as she works through this. Yeah, that sounds great.
BEN: Pretty good time.
ERIC: She ge— she can get expert on Through the Fire and Flames. She could just do the drums though.
BEN: Yes that's it, that's it, that's the future.
ERIC: Incredible. Yeah. But yeah, Peyton, I think you should figure out what your mom likes, and then you can run down that genre. If you need to—feel free to write back with— to give more clarification about what ‘kiddish’ means. But Return of the Obra Dinn— I'm very interested in showing your mom like video games as art. And I think A Short Hike and something like that. Maybe we'll see if she likes that stuff, and then you can kind of go from there.
BEN: Yeah.
ERIC: But ultimately, just give her Pokemon and see what happens.
BEN: That's it, that's the answer, yeah.
ERIC: Yeah. Give her a JRPG and just like– then tell her to just go. Ben, I have another question. I know you really like board games. I know you usually talk about video games, but you like board games too, right?
BEN: I do. Yeah, for sure.
ERIC: Yeah. First, just for me, can you give a quick recommendation for any two person board games that you really like?
BEN: Yeah. Number one is a game that - full disclosure, we were paid by iam8bit to promote on the show because they published it. But then they sent us a copy and I’m like ‘wait, no, this actually rules I'm so excited about this.’ It's a game called Dustbiters.
ERIC: Ooohh.
BEN: Dustbiters. And it is a very simple card-based game that is inspired by Mad Max. And so it's only for two players. And it's— oh god are there 18 different cards? I think that's it. So it's like the most portable little thing. You can bring it to a restaurant, bring it to a brewery, whatever you need. And then every card just has a unique ability, and they all mix and match and interplay with each other in just wildly creative and weird ideas. It’s the type of game that you play and the abilities— all of them seem so overly overpowered. Like ‘there's no way this can be balanced this— We're gonna shatter this game.’ But I play it all the time and we have yet to break it. It's just— it's incredible. So yeah, Dustbiters from iam8bit, there.
ERIC: This looks incredible. I'm gonna pick this up.
BEN: Yeah, yeah.
ERIC: Okay.
BEN: Yeah, you definitely should. Tim Schafer from Double Fine is in the pitch video, if you need that for a real endorsement there.
ERIC: I'm on the website. The quote from him is, “I didn't make this game, but I played it and I love it.”
BEN: Yeah, that's all you need to know. It's so good.
ERIC: That's so funny. Alright, we have two people who wrote in with the same question. I'm gonna read this one from WetWipes69 because that's a really funny name that you wrote in for. But Lindsey also had a very similar question. Oh, ordinarily, we co—I come up with like, Sleepless in Seattle names for people.
BEN: Right, right.
ERIC: So I think this is like, ‘I've been gaming on my own,’ like from— like, Robin is the pun?
BEN: Okay.
ERIC: You got it? Did you like it? Was that good for you?
BEN: I mean, it's tough to top WetWipes69.
ERIC: I know, I can't top that.
BEN: That can just be your new Sleepless in Seattle name for everybody is some variant of wet wipe and some sexual act.
ERIC: Yeah. Maybe they live in Wet Wipes Colorado, and that's just their favorite number. Alright, so “out of all of my friends, I'm the one who likes to play the most board games. What are some solo board games you've played or watched others play, or heard good things about?” Lindsey has a similar question about her loving board games, but they moved away from home and they have to get— kind of build up their own board game collection. Ben, do you know of any solo board games that exist?
BEN: Man, I don't think I've ever played a solo board game. I know they exist. I'm sure there are great sites for trying to find them. But this is a cop-out. But it's like, you could go that route, but what if— if your friends aren't into board games, what if you just went and found some very simple board games? Because I think board games are kind of like video games where you talk to random people on the street and like, ‘I don't— I don't like video games, I don't play video games. I mean, yeah, I play Candy Crush every day, and I loved Pac-Man back then.’ Okay, then you like video games, everybody! And so I feel like people being like, ‘I don't like tabletop games. I don't like board games.’ You don't like Monopoly, and you don't like seeing and being intimidated by Catan or something.
ERIC: Right.
BEN: But like, there's such a huge range here that I refuse to believe that we could not play any board game and you wouldn't have a good time. Just, you know, something like Just One that came out a couple years ago. Like—
ERIC: Oh, sure.
BEN: —everyone will have a good time with that silly game. There's plenty of games in that vein that people would enjoy.
ERIC: Lately, I've been watching some old videos from The Game Grumps play through Clubhouse 51, which is like—
BEN: Interesting.
ERIC: The—the video, they're basically video game versions of traditional board game games. And it's on Switch, and it's super—just super easy to pick up. And I think it's relatively cheap, even if it's like, quasi-first-party Nintendo stuff.
BEN: Right.
ERIC: But like, it is really fun being like, ‘you know what, I don't have Othello. I do want to play Othello right now. And I'm going to play this name-brand version of Othello that they have on this, like extensive board game simulator.’
BEN: Yeah, I forgot about that game. Because yeah, on the Switch version, they have like a baseball game in there, too.
ERIC: Yes, they do.
BEN: Genuinely very fun. I had a really good time playing that one— I don't care about baseball at all, but that is probably the most I've ever enjoyed a baseball video game, is that stupid, weird clubhouse version of it from Nintendo.
ERIC: Right. The one where it's like the boar- it's like the toy version with like, the little guys who go beep and— like the mechanical version of it, and they made a video game version of the mechanical version of baseball.
BEN: Yep. Yep. It's Streetfighter, the movie, the game. Yep.
ERIC: Yeah. It's like turning baseball into pinball, and then they made a virtual pinball of it.
BEN: It's basically it. Yeah.
ERIC: I really, really liked that. And then you learn all these like really weird board games for— that are like, only from like one neighborhood in England, where they play like Dead Man's Chest or whatever it is.
BEN: Exactly.
ERIC: But no. That— I think you can play that if you want to try to introduce people to like simple stuff, or you don't want to like go buy yourself a Mancala Board. If you want to do this, I think I have two recommendations for solo board games. One is, you should try to find video game versions of your favorite board games, so you can play against an AI. My recommendation for this is, I really love this game called Sentinels of the Multiverse. Ben, have you heard of this one?
BEN: Sounds a little familiar, but I haven't played it.
ERIC: So it's kind of like a fixed deck builder. Or it's kind of like a fixed Magic the Gathering, where like you are playing as a superhero and they give you a deck that has like cards like Magic the Gathering, but it's fixed to that specific superhero to allow you to do specific powers and stuff. And you're supposed to play it with other people. And you're— it's a cooperative. So you're playing against like a villain deck and an environment deck. And the whole thing about it is that the Sentinels comics is a third giant house of comics alongside DC and Marvel. So it's like the lore of this card game gets incredibly fucking deep and is absolutely wonderful. So they have a video game version of that. And I know there are a lot of video game versions of like Catan and Ticket to Ride and stuff. So you can just fire that up and just play with yourself there.
BEN: Yeah, that's smart.
ERIC: I also, if you're a big nerd, which it sounds like you are Wetwipes69 and Lindsey. If you really want to, you can set up cooperative games and play by yourself. When I was really getting into board games in my early and mid-20s, I was a lot more into games than other people around me - like the nitty gritty, wanting to play all the time, wanting to play at a high level trying to like elevate play and do this as hard as possible. So I—the thing with Sentinels of the Multiverse is that you're supposed to play with like 2,3,4 players and each of you has a different deck, so you're controlling different superheroes. I would play all three. I would play three superheroes at the same— at the same time and do it myself. Now, that's fucking weird, and don't do that.
BEN: Uh-huh.
ERIC: But there are solo versions of games that you can set up. For example Root. I don't know if you've seen that. But Root is like little groups of animals, have their own civilization and they're fighting over stuff. There are expansions called the Clockwork Expansions, where you can set up stuff so you can play Root by yourself.
BEN: Interesting.
ERIC: And I wonder if a lot of like more intricate board games have more of these solo setups. So you can actually play something that is at high-level strategy that you're looking for. If you really are like jonesing to play a crunchy board game by yourself. I think a lot of games have this similar sort of setup.
BEN: Yeah, that's smart. And Tabletop Simulator. I mean, if you just want the one thing to get to try out all these different board games, that's obviously a slam dunk too.
ERIC: Have you— have you done that? I've only seen it done in VR. Have you done it like on ta—on like a computer?
BEN: Yeah, yeah. It runs well, yeah it's great.
ERIC: It's good. Okay. I thought it was like the Met— someone was trying to con me into the Metaverse.
BEN: No, no, it's not the Metaverse. No. No, yeah. it's not too bad. Maybe it'd be cooler in VR and stuff. But yeah, I think it was— I mean, it was built for flat gaming, right? And they probably made a VR-compatible version, I guess?
ERIC: I'm no— I’ve only seen a video of it, I've never done it.
BEN: Oh, okay, okay.
ERIC: So I just kind of assumed that it was like, ‘oh, yeah, you can have all of your meetings in Tabletop Simulator.’
BEN: Oh, that's confusing. No, it's just a great place to try out every game ever.
ERIC: Incredible. What's like a really weird board game you've played on there? That like you can't find or afford the board game version of?
BEN: Yeah. Alright, I'll tell you what it is. Let's see if I can try to remember the name of it. It's um, so we found— I think it was just at some thrift store, there was a board game from the 90s, it's like Pokemon Master Trainer.
ERIC: Oh my god.
BEN: And it was like, yeah, sure, it's a Pokemon board game. It's some licensed crap. And like, you know, I'm a Pokemon fan - jump in and like, they, they nailed it. Like, it's genuinely a well-designed tabletop game. It's really good. I mean, it's not gonna blow you away, but like, for a game for kids, it's like, I enjoy playing this one with my nephews.
ERIC: That's incredible. I'm looking at it on Board Game Geek right now. It looks absolutely incredible.
BEN: It's really good. And so then I found it in Tabletop Simulator. But the cool thing is people have made mods because this is just the original 151. But people have made mods, and they're adding all new Pokemon whenever a new Pokemon is released. So now you can play Pokemon Master Trainer, but with what, over a thousand, or however many Pokemon there are now? It's mind-boggling.
ERIC: Finally, I can get Lickilicky in real life.
BEN: That's right. That's right. So that's probably the weirdest avenue that I've seen. But just like, oh, that'd be a fun stream at some point is to play like an advanced version of Pokemon Master Trainer.
ERIC: Ben, please have me on when you have that. That sounds absolutely fucking sick.
BEN: Alright, alright, there we go. Also, yeah, the crazy thing is— yeah, I think the original board game is going for a lot. Yeah, it's like what, on eBay, it's for 320 bucks, are you kidding me?
ERIC: Oh, my God. And you found that at a thrift store?
BEN: I think that's where we got it. Yeah.
ERIC: And now you got to resell it on eBay, Ben. Put it—and then you could invest it back into MinnMax.
BEN: Smart, smart. That's it, throw it in the big pile.
ERIC: At one point on the No Clip podcast, I think Danny O'Dwyer was like ‘oh, do I need to create like a b-to-b business to like support like the games media that I'm doing?’ I've been thinking about that a lot. Because I think that a lot of companies end up doing that. Like you do one thing on the side, so you can keep doing content. And Ben, you could flip games you find in Minnesota thrift stores, and sell that on eBay. And that's the backbone of MinnMax, and you could do whatever you want.
BEN: That's—I like that idea of instead of like renovating houses, you get old board games, but then you tweak the rules and make them better, and then flip them and somehow convince people that that's worth more money.
ERIC: That sounds like a house-flipping show that would be on Geek & Sundry if Geek & Sundry still existed.
BEN: Yeah. Yep.
ERIC: Like they would invest a lot of money, Janet Varney would host. And it’s like somewhere between House Hunters, and like American Pickers, but it's like for nerds.
BEN: See, this is good. And we— we’ll put it in our New Show Plus poll. And we won't understand what the show is, but people can vote for it and we'll wing it.
ERIC: It's like, ‘alright, we bought this 1970s game about capitalism, and we're gonna fix it, and then flip it and do a whole new redesign.’ Honestly, that's not a bad idea if copyright didn't exist, that would be pretty great.
BEN: Yeah. But it's the internet, no one's gonna find you. But this is— look, I don't want to get political here. But wouldn't it be—it'd be an interesting challenge if somebody took like the Donald Trump board game—
ERIC: Sure.
BEN: —that existed in like the 80s. But like, you know, some designers from Firaxis, were like, no, we're gonna make this thing sing. We're actually going to make this thing rule. And I understand it's a politically complicated issue. But, like, I wouldn't— I just would like that design challenge of like, can you take just some old turd of a board game and do something cool with it?
ERIC: I kind of love this now. It feels like a Binging with Babish challenge. You know like how he has on his like extended Babish universe where it's like, ‘alright, this person who works for me who's very talented at cooking, you're gonna combine soup dumplings and grilled cheese.’
BEN: Right.
ERIC: Is like this feels like something you would spend like a lot of time making one 40-minute video for. And then you got to see if it catches fire or not and then you're no—and then Pennypacker comes down and says, why did you spend time working on this? Go film web three Ben, I told you.
BEN: Exactly. Oh, it's a future I can't wait for.
ERIC: Yeah. The real problem is that the executives keep trying to have meetings inside of Tabletop Simulator.
BEN: ‘Pennypacker, unmute your mic, come on Pennypacker.’
ERIC: ‘Pennypacker, it's your— it's your rolling phase, you have to put down soldiers.’ Ben Hanson, it has been so much fun having you on here. Please come back again, and I'm going to continue to have more and more MinnMax people on. I have three now, so I got one victory point. But if I get another one—
BEN: Yup.
ERIC: I get three victory points.
BEN: That's right. And you have to have the longest road I think of - I don't know there's something here. Oh, but hey, thank you for having me on. Appreciate it.
ERIC: Absolutely. Where can people find you and where can people find MinnMax?
BEN: Easiest place would be The MinnMax Show Podcast. And the catch is that there's two Ns in MinnMax in honor of Minnesota where we're from. So, M I N N M A X. If you just look for that on your favorite podcast app, it's there. Otherwise if you're a fan of YouTube check out youtube.com/minnmax also with two N's, you can find all of our shows there.
ERIC: I never knew that's why you have two N's in MinnMax.
BEN: Yeah, we should probably talk about it more. But yup it's a— it's a— you know, it also just helps with SEO and stuff, but that was the original idea—
ERIC: Sure.
BEN: —is, ‘okay, we're from Minnesota, how do we subtly convey that? Ah, here we go. This—this seems like a lock.’
ERIC: That explains why there's a golden gopher underneath the first M.
BEN: That's right. Hey, look at you, look at you going.
ERIC: Hey, Games and Feelings. Some of the games extends to sports and uh—
BEN: Ah, there it is.
ERIC: That counts, that counts. Wonderful. Well, you can also find me on the internet. I'm El_Silvero. E L underscore S I L V E R O on social media. That's my name if I was a lucho libre wrestler. And remember to keep submitting questions to Games and Feelings. All you have to do is go to the website or the link in the episode description, and there's a really quick Google form. And remember you can send in questions about video games, board games, tabletop games, escape rooms, bar trivia night, knowing sports, we'd still want to have the all sp— oops, all sports episode, where Jasper and I talk about sports. We have a few questions for that, but we definitely need a few more, that would be wonderful. Thank you again, Ben, for coming on. And remember - Ben, I don't know if you heard—
BEN: Yeah.
ERIC: —There is nothing in the instruction manual about feelings.
BEN: That's right, man.
ERIC: That's Right.
[theme song plays]
ERIC: Games and Feelings is produced by Eric Silver and edited and mixed by Mischa Stanton. The theme music is ‘Return to French Toast Castle’ by Jeff Brice. And the art was created by Jessica Boyd. Find transcripts for this episode, and all episodes, at our website, gamesandfeelings.com. Until next time, press X to enjoy the podcast.
Transcriptionist: KA
Editor: KM
Proofreader: SR