Should I Make My Friends Play a New Board Game? with Jeremy Cobb and Taylor Moore
If you own a board game with seven expansions, you love this board game. And the publisher definitely knows who you are, which is cool to think about. I don’t know who you are, specifically, but Jeremy Cobb, Taylor Moore, and I can help you as if we do!
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- Host, Producer, & Question Keeper: Eric Silver
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About Us
Games and Feelings is an advice podcast about being human and loving all types of games: video games, tabletop games, party games, laser tag, escape rooms, game streams, and anything else that we play for fun. Join Question Keeper Eric Silver and a revolving cast of guests as they answer your questions at the intersection of fun and humanity, since, you know, you gotta play games with other people. Whether you need a game recommendation, need to sort out a dispute at the table, or decide whether an activity is good for a date, we’re your instruction manual. New episodes drop every other Friday.
Transcript
Eric: Hello gamers! Welcome to Games and Feelings an advice show about playing games, being human and dealing with the fact that those games will involve other humans. I appreciate that, this is a running theme that when I say this, my guests are like, “am I a gamer?” And they have to struggle with that in their own head. You both made a face like you weren't ready for me to say that.
Taylor: I thought you were addressing me, so…
Jeremy: Yeah, my middle name is gamer, legally.
Taylor: My first name is gamer. [Laughs] Illegally, I did not change mine legally.
Eric: [Laughs] I do appreciate a nickname that comes before the name, that, I think is very good. I am your host and question keeper Eric silver. And the YuGiOh card I remember is Fuzzy Kuriboh. And I'm gonna put them in defense mode and end my turn.
Jeremy: Ooh, I am Jeremy Cobb. I am a guest here on the show. And my favorite YuGiOh card is Bloody Squito. I never actually used it. But I distinctly remember a friend of mine, his mother not wanting him to play with YuGiOh cards, because one of them was called Bloody Squito. Oh, and she thought that was much too dark. So I'm going to play it facedown. And end my turn.
Taylor: Oh, and uh, oh, boy. Look at this. It's me. Taylor Moore. And the YuGiOh card I remember is “I'm 40 years old.” And oh, wait, no, I just had one pop into my head. Double Blue Dragons. Is that one?
Eric: [Laughs] Honestly -
Jeremy: Blue Eyes White Dragon is one of them. Maybe Double Blue Dragons - ?
Taylor: White! That's what I said. Did you hear blue? White, no, I know all the culture, white, double white dragons. And I'm going to, uh, tap it and return it to my graveyard.
Jeremy: There is a Double Blue Eyes White Dragon! You're right.
Eric: You got it, Taylor.
Jeremy: Blue Eyes Twin Burst Dragon.
Taylor: Yes.
Eric: Honestly, I would have believed it regardless. Like I didn't want to check. I'm like, yeah, probably, it probably exists.
Jeremy: [Laughs] I compulsively check. And now that I know that it's called Twin Bursts Dragon I feel my life has been enriched.
Taylor: I knew there was some kind of Double Dragon involved.
Eric: I'm so happy that both of you are here. We were talking about this right before the podcast started. Sometimes you need an excuse to see people who you haven't seen in a long time. And it's like maybe you start a podcast, and you invite them on. And you think that people might be friends. So you have them here. So we're going to use that excuse to give some advice to some game - other gamers out there about ways to make their lives better.
Jeremy: Yeah, sounds like an adventure.
Taylor: I'm here to help.
Jeremy: I'm here just to have an adventure. I don't care about these people.
Eric: That's totally, that's, that's fair.
Taylor: I hope we can find some kind of common ground. [Laughs]
Eric: Well, I do have some common ground for both of you. We're gonna go to our first segment -
Jeremy: That was easy. What an excellent segue.
Eric: I'm, listen, I’m trying my best. I'm, I have notes in front of me, but they don't have any sort of stat blocks on them. So I'm still figuring it out.
Jeremy: But years of Dungeon Mastering have, have given you the I think the instincts for how to keep a party on track. In a pinch.
Eric: The problem is is I'm using my regular voice. If I was using a character voice, this might go smoother for me.
Taylor: Only one way to find out.
Eric: [Character voice] All right, so we're gonna go to our first question, our first segment that we have for both of you know - [Normal voice] no, I don't know if that's better, I think that’s worse.
Jeremy: I'd like to roll insight.
Eric: I'm enjoying myself. Our first segment is a question for both of you, which I think that you can kind of illuminate for everyone. This is NFAQs, they're Not Frequently Asked Questions. I have one for both of you. You spend the majority of your time playing and producing actual-play tabletop RPG podcasts. Jeremy, you are one of the Three Black Halflings and Taylor, you are the engine that makes Fun City, Rude Tales of Magic, and the various other shows from the Fortunate Horse Audio Company go.
Taylor: Award winning! I think both of us, award winning?
Jeremy: In my mind, absolutely. I've awarded myself many things.
Taylor: Yeah, so award winning.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Eric: I, we spend a lot of time talking about how we wish that things were better, and maybe the criticism that we send out, but I want to ask both of you what is the best thing happening in tabletop RPG podcasts right now? What are the things that we can be happy about that exist in 2022?
Jeremy: I think the best thing that's happening in the TTRPG podcasting world is, controversially, the saturation. I think the degree to which it has become commonplace has actually opened the space up to a lot of creators who have not historically fit the mold of your classic D&D player. In other words, a white, straight man, usually American. I feel like the fact that it's gotten so popular has made it more acceptable, seemingly, for people who don't fit that mold to jump in and lead shows that are often really really good. Shout out to, actually I was talking about them before this, Connie Chang and Transplanar for an example of someone who is not a cis het white man, leading a really, really great actual play show. I think that that not only offers more variety of content for people to to consume, but I think that level of representation also makes other people feel more comfortable to get into the hobby in the first place. I think for a lot of certainly black people, they see D&D as like a white thing. And if they see a bunch of black people playing D&D, they're like, “Oh, dang, maybe I can play maybe this is a black person game as well. Maybe it's a game for everybody.”
Eric: 100%. I also, I'm not go - First of all, go-in, poet's spirit, make them wait, say, say what you got to say. I 100% agree with you. I think it also, in terms of saturation. It's not even the traditional idea of what games are, that like, this needs to, “I need to have these references from the 80s and 90s together, I need to play this specific game, I need to play in high fantasy.” And I think that that further opens it up to the various types of people from the various genders, sexualities, ethnicities, religions, et cetera. So not only is the representation, but we have different types of games, as well. It opens that up and we can play the game that we want to play, so that we're not just like talking about fucking Nordic gods or whatever.
Taylor: Yeah, I'm really excited to like bust up genre stuff. I love fantasy, of course, but like the mechanics of all this are capable of so much more than sword and sorcery stuff. I, yeah, I think we're right on the verge of people really breaking into like different genres and stuff. I would love to see that.
Jeremy: I was actually just watching a video yesterday that was talking about how when it comes to like, more weird, surrealist fantasy, your twin points of inspiration tend to be Alice in Wonderland, or the Wonderland books, and then the Oz books. And how weirdly, there's like if you read Oz, like beyond just the initial Wizard of Oz stuff, it is crazy! The stuff that shows up in that series. That is like a whole avenue of TTRPG fantasy exploration, and then not, not just that exact source material, but that tone. Anyway, I'm sidetracking us but I completely agree with you, Taylor. I think there's a lot like busting up the genre. I am so in favor of. I'm so for.
Taylor: For sure. Oh, the new the new cyborg book from the Mork Borg people is, I think that’s shipping this week
Eric: Oh, what is that?
Taylor: Mork Borg is like, like, black metal, like, filth fantasy? I don’t know, have you ever seen the movie It's Hard To Be A God? It's just like a disgusting fantasy. That was huge Kickstarter project, great game, and they're putting out a cyborg version, which is like a cyberpunk, same style thing to sort of break the cyberpunk away from the you know, like Johnny Mnemonic -
Jeremy: Orientalist, yeah.
Taylor: Yes, yes, yes. A lot of that stuff, right. Just sort of break it away. I like to like see genre stuff like that grounded in filth. Yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah. Other, instead of Blade Runner?
Taylor: Yeah.
Jeremy: Everything is either Blade Runner like Akira? Essentially.
Eric: Hell, yes. Taylor, do you have something that you like about what's happening in tabletop RPG media right now?
Taylor: I, you know, I saw someone, and this happens with every new medium that comes out that people talk about, people complain, like, “oh, there's too many podcasts.” Oh, same as, “Oh, there's too many blogs.” Same as others “too many TV shows.” As if someone is like tying you to a table and making you listen or watch or read all this stuff. No, the explo- like the democratization of cultural production is an incredibly valuable and wonderful thing. And it, as much as any part of it is annoying. The fact that it is happening at all is transformative to the way most people can communicate and create art without the say-so of the bottleneck gatekeepers who just, people with money, you know, and pre-existing privilege before you came along. So like the explosion of the genre, I think, is the best thing in the world. I think it's great. And I think the more it explodes, yeah, the more we get variety and everything. It's fantastic. So yeah, I mean, like there's new people coming to the space. There's big people in other mediums that are like paying attention to like, actual narrative play audio stuff. That's all very exciting. Yeah, bigger the better, I say.
Eric: I definitely think that's totally true. I think… no, I don't have anything more interesting to say in this discussion. I think both of you guys - [Jeremy and Taylor laugh]
Jeremy: I'm wondering if one thing that it has kind of been interesting to see is the success of the Legend of Vox Machina, because that seems to be open, mainstreaming the hobby even more to a degree, or at least creating more opportunities for people who are producing things in the hobby to potentially expand into other avenues beyond simply just podcasting. Like “oh, dang, TV now cares. Well, that's interesting.”
Eric: Nah, I think that that's true. I think something that maybe Taylor was hitting on a little bit, now that Amazon has made a show that is D&D specific, and Critical Role is the absolute largest goddamn thing. I mean, it's the, they, after that Twitch leak happened, we know that they are the, the single biggest thing on Twitch as well, and they are doing something high fantasy. I wonder if the fact that high fantasy is still rising to the top, it allows a middle of all the things that we just said, of the, of people who are not traditional D&D players. As you touched on Jeremy, Taylor as you touched on of different types of genres bubbling out and how those two things come together, and a middle is going to thrive because people can directly support folks on Patreon, can pay for live shows much more easily. The only, the absolute only silver lining of the fact that we've all been inside, and so many people have died lately, is that at least people understand more that you can support artists directly. Like it's finally a thing that people understand.
Jeremy: [Laughs] Yeah…
Taylor: [Laughs] But I was with you, inside, and I was like, “Yeah!” And you were like, it's “so many people have died.” It’s like, I mean… okay! I did not - [Laughs]
Jeremy: But your Patreon numbers are great.
Taylor: Yeah. Well, there's less competition. [Jeremy and Taylor laugh]
Eric: I'm gonna say that, again. The only silver lining that I've seen from the fact that we've all been inside since March of 2020, is that people understand how to support artists directly. They like, they understand that their dollars go farther. Obviously, we started from directly supporting, like Etsy shops and merchants and restaurants. And I think that's starting to apply to artists. Since 2020.
Jeremy: I remember, I, Okay, so I've been a fan of the band Pomplamoose since 2011, I think.
Eric: Yeah.
Jeremy: And I remember when Jack Conte announced that he was starting Patreon, and I was like, oh, that sounds like a cool idea. And here I am, all these years later on it. And I'm like, this is, this is, I did not see this coming. For like how big it's gotten. I'm, I'm so happy because I remember back in the day, he was like, “What if we created a way for people to help support, directly support the artists and the art that they want to see, because clearly, corporations aren't only going to support artists, to the extent that they have to, to keep them producing stuff.” Whereas, look, if a fan just loves something a creator makes, now they get to directly influence the making of that stuff.
Eric: And I sure hope that Patreon does not become a corporation itself, and we'll have to Shadowrun it and destroy it as they continue to make VC stuff. But you know, hopefully, the tools will still stay for, for the creators in that way. I don't know. I don't know why I'm being so dark about this. I don't, it feels like [Laughs] I just feel like I've had to, this is the first time maybe I've talked to someone today. This is why I've been veering in this direction.
Jeremy: I mean, I have faith that, that they will at least try and keep things like centered around the positive aspects, like that the core beliefs, we won't end up with like a Charles Foster Kane, like looking at the principles that he'd set out the beginning like, “Oh, dang, yeah, didn't quite…” like, going down the list, checking off which one we've broken. Like, why it seems as though like we'll at least maintain some, I guess, integrity, based on the fact that I think Jack Conte is now running the company full like, full time.
Eric: I hope so.
Taylor: Well, they, they took out - is this interesting to talk about? The level of investment that Patreon has taken from VC? It's a lot.
Eric: It's a lot, yeah.
Taylor: They’re on the hook. And my, I, because listen, I, I've worked at Kickstarter for six years. I'm a big believer in the democratization of cultural production and funding. My concern about Patreon is that they owe so much money. They have very active investors. And that pressure can lead people to make huge mistakes. So I hope that business for them continues to be so good that they do not have to do anything horrible. Fingers crossed, because right now I love it.
Eric: Yeah, that's what I'm, that's what I was. I 100% agree with Taylor. If you use Patreon, either any of you listeners out there, if you support someone on Patreon or use Patreon, just tell them not to do NFT's or crypto, just tell them, tell them. I continually tell them just tell them not to just does that
Jeremy: [Sarcastically] Does that mean I should get, I should cancel the Three Black Halflings NFTs?
Eric: Yeah, probably!
Jeremy: Oh, I planned that! Does that, is it no longer fungible? Or is it fungible now, is that what it is? [Eric laughs]
Taylor: You can now opt in to funging.
Jeremy: Oh, so it's fung- optional.
Taylor: It's fung-optional. It's a slider. It's a spectrum now.
Jeremy: I feel like it's a slippery slope of fung, though, once you start with some fungibility. It's only a matter of time before everything's completely fungible.
Taylor: Everything's been funged. Yeah, everyone's funging everything left and right.
Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Eric: Honestly, that's my biggest complaint with Elden Ring is that there's not as much fung as I anticipated from From Software. And I wish that I had a slider where I could turn up the fung to make it as hard as possible.
Taylor: Let me tell you something about Elden Ring, god dammit. [Eric laughs] Every day, there is a 10% part of my brain that is at the window of the internet like a sick child, with my nose pressed against the glass, watching everyone play and talk about this game that was clearly developed for me individually, specifically. And I am so busy, I cannot even get my PlayStation out of the box in the closet and plug it in and download it. Like the idea that I can have an hour to spend on a video game is so laughably bonkers. I could put it in like a fantasy story. Like something that happened at a magic school. And watching all you people talk about it and play it is maybe the first time in my life, I have experienced visceral jealousy.
Jeremy: Oh, wow. Is, is it because of all the fungibility that everyone else is experiencing - ?
Taylor: Yesss!!!
Jeremy: I hear the fung features, though. Like I know that it's not fungible enough for you, Eric, but I have heard that this, even compared to like the other Souls-type games, very fungible.
Eric: It's just that everyone keeps telling me to git gud. And I assume it's because of the fungibility and that's my biggest problem.
Taylor: No, if you go to the item menu, and you press down on the right joystick, it sorts all the items by fung.
Eric: That's honestly helpful. They don't tell you that, that's the thing about Elden Ring, they don't tell you how to deal with the UI. But if you see it sorted by fung if you know how to use it. Taylor, truly, I feel like a lot of the bosses from Elden Ring seem that they came directly from your brain.
Taylor: I - It is like seeing someone get on like a train on the platform across from you. And in the second before the doors closed, you know, that's your soulmate, love at first sight. And they see you too. And it's obvious they feel the same way. And the doors close and the trains head off in other directions, like, I, it is, I feel absolutely spiritually torn that I cannot play this game. What if I just threw myself in front of a car? [Jeremy and Eric laugh] And like just broke both legs on purpose. Nobody would expect me to podcast anymore.
Eric: Taylor you got to Misery yourself and not -
Jeremy: Ooh, yeah.
Eric: - you can take a sledgehammer to both ankles so you can play Elden Ring.
Jeremy: Well, you can talk with broken legs,
Taylor: Shit!
Eric: Oh, that’s true.
Jeremy: I think what you need to do is just, is like burn your voice out. You need to go full Miles Davis get like a throat surgery and then yell at somebody. [Eric laughs] That's really what happened, by the way, Miles Davis had a throat surgery. And they told him that he shouldn't talk for a certain, like for weeks. And he had such a bad temper that somebody did something he didn't like, and he screamed at them. [Gravely voice] So for the rest of his life he sounded like this.
Eric: That's wild. And also this is obviously a perfect demonstration. Because if you were listening, if D&D media was like it was in 2016, that joke would have been like “blah, blah, blah, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, blah, blah, blah,” it would have been about a third as funny and I very much appreciate you, Jeremy. [Jeremy laughs] Alright, let's answer some questions. I think that we can help some people instead of worrying about the amount of fungibility.
Jeremy: Are these questions fungible, is my question.
Eric: They are unfungible, but I will draw you a photo of a monkey after this.
Jeremy: Okay. Thank you. Yes.
Eric: All right. I have a question here from “Angst In Appalachia,” pronouns they/them. “I often find myself stuck in D&D campaigns mired in silliness. While I want my tabletop RPG experience to be a fun one, this leaves very little room for sincere character development, emotional vulnerability, or the feeling of having actual stakes in-game. I want to be able to roleplay realistically and seriously when the scene calls for it. But I've yet to find a group who isn't weighed down by the concept. How do I find my people?” I think both of you have very specific and, like obvious themes, to the games in which you play. How do you tell someone that this is the type of game you play, and not just kind of like, reduce down to the thing that feels easiest?
Jeremy: I personally upfront tell people if I'm going to be DMing for them, that I like to be able to go as far in any direction as they are comfortable with. And what I mean is like, I want to go into the extreme of just a complete slapstick weird, bizarre silliness on the one end, and then if need be in the next scene, we can do something that is like the saddest, most heartbreaking thing. I prefer flexibility. So I love having like some silly demeanor as like a baseline. But I think you got to communicate upfront. Like, “I get something out of drama, I get something out of like people taking stuff seriously, and having actual emotional nuance” and stuff like that. So communication is a big thing up front. And look, if a person just flat out doesn't want to do that, then there's, that's just not a good match. I would suggest checking out if they haven't Dimension20, or Not Another D&D Podcast, both of which I think are tremendous examples of extremely silly shows that can be extremely dramatic when the moment calls for it, or I mean, I guess some of the Three Black Halflings actual play can be pretty silly. [Laughs] So go check that out, too, if you really want to.
Taylor: Alright, here's my pitch for what ‘Angst In Appalachia’ ought to do. Alright, So I think this game you've got going on, that's not as serious as you'd like, lost cause. Probably been going on for several months, people have already got their, you know, constellation of psychological associations with this game set in stone. And they probably like it, they probably go to the game for the bits. And if they're not going to have like sincere dramatic improvised moments, and you tried to force it on them, ehh that's a mismatch. But! You're also in Appalachia, I take it, so your, your pickings are slim, you know, you can't go down to the Piggly Wiggly and just scream “looking for group,” and then have the right players, you know, come up to you and want to play. No. So, so what I recommend is you psychologically break down the players, the game that you're in. Here's how you do it. You say “I'm gonna run a new game,” and maybe it's a one-off, maybe it's a couple of sessions. And it's a different game, or it's a different setting or something like that, you want to get them in a new environment, and then teach them how you want to play instead. So you say “I'm gonna run a game, it's gonna be different from the one we normally do, I'm going to take this,” you know, don't say “I'm gonna be a big dramatic DM or whatever,” just say we're gonna, you know, like, do something a little darker, a little more serious. And then you set the tone, you set the tone. And then if they meet you there, then they have learned to, this new way to play. If you try it, and it fails, well, it was never meant to be, and you just get to sit at home in the mirror talking about honor.
Jeremy: [Laughs] There's also Roll20. Like they could just try Roll20. And there, I think there are other platforms that allow you to actually search for a group of people to play with. Oh, you also like Discord.If you join Discord servers for a lot of these popular shows. You can literally like connect with people. I know on the Three Black Halflings Discord, people have formed groups that play together on that, and I'm pretty sure the NAD-pod Discord probably has a similar function. I imagine if you find shows that have a tone that's closer to what you're looking for, and you go to the fandoms of those shows, you will have an easier time finding people who have the same sensibilities as you.
Eric: Yeah, I 100% agree with what I think, what Taylor is saying. Is that you can't undo what's currently happening. And I think what I'm getting, kind of, from this question is that maybe if the DM puts out something that has emotional resonance on it, someone's like, “and then I take a shit on it,” or “and then I turn and then I bring out my, my demon ‘Funky Busters,’ and he takes a shit on it.” Like I think that might be the thing, is the thing that people are reaching for is goofiness. And I mean, there's nothing wrong with doing silly stuff. But I think that trying to find room for actual, like sincere character development is what ‘Angst In Appalachia’ said. I think that's it. I 100% agree with Jeremy, if you have a show you really like, like, I don't know, Three Black Halflings, Rude Tales of Magic, Join the Party.
Jeremy: Join the Party, yeah.
Eric: I don't know if you've heard of these shows. You will find someone who also likes the thing that you like, and then you can start from there. The hard part, honestly, the thing that scares the shit out of me of what you said Jeremy is like trying to find someone from scratch to do this game with you. Because you can say - I'm sure that when they went in there, this person Angst went into this game and said, “so we're gonna, like, do some RPing, we're gonna have like some emotional stuff, you know,” and the DM, the DM and the players were like “yeah, we're definitely do it.” And then Funky Busters, the demon, came out and took a shit on the first NPC who existed, right?
Jeremy: Yeah.
Eric: So I want to, it's really hard. I feel like you got to start from something and then go from there. You can't just like cast your line out into nowhere. And I think Taylor, what you're saying is maybe starting to, you start the theme from there and then see if like they like what you're putting down.
Taylor: Yea - or sneakier, like figure out what your co-players like actually care about. And then just like, poke it.
Eric: What do you mean, can you give an example? I think I'm getting what you're getting at but I see the glint in your eye.
Taylor: Just like - it's hard to do it if you're not the DM, but even as a player you got to figure out… because I feel that like, there are two wolves in everyone. [Laughs] There's like there's the bit-wolf and then there's the wolf that like deep down craves the Joseph Campbellian story structure. Even though there is no conscious desire of that structure, they still want it. And if you can find the right key that will unlock the you know the part of them that - I mean that taking it seriously isn’t even it - has a genuine emotional reaction to something in the game.
Jeremy: Yeah, I was just about to say a similar thing. It reminds me of, I can't remember the name of the movie, but it was about the Black Sox Scandal, which if you're not familiar with the Black Sox Scandal, the Chicago White Sox, I believe in 1919 threw the World Series. Famously. And they got the picture, Eddie Ciccotte, in on it. And as soon as they got him, that was it. Like they, it doesn't even matter what the rest of the team does. And I feel like if you have the DM on, if that's what the DM wants it to go that way. They have ways of massaging it that way. Maybe this fart demon who keeps showing up and pooping on everything, maybe he tragically dies. Maybe the fart demon, while taking his biggest fart yet, is horribly murdered by the person that the DM wants the party to go after. And now the party is like, “Nah, it's personal now.” And now we have like this really dramatic scene of fart demon, like, farting his way off of this mortal coil. And they're like cradling him. And all of his - I'm just imagining all of his lines of dialogue are underscored by farts, like every word. And he's like, “Don't forget me.” But underneath it he like - [Fart noises. Eric laughs] But it still is this incredibly dramatic scene somehow, and everybody like, everyone's crying. From then on, you now have a very clear goal with the rest of this campaign. And you can still have all the silliness and fun stuff, but I think, ‘Angst In Appalachia,’ if you are not the DM of this group, then maybe it's worth talking to the DM about what tone they want. And if you are the DM of this group, I completely agree with Taylor, if you like kill something, or threatened something that the players actually do care about, the odds of them becoming more invested skyrocket, and maybe you won't ever hit the exact heights you want. But you can absolutely move things closer to a tone of game that you would prefer.
Eric: Hell yes. I love that. I, Angst, I hope that this was helpful enough, and, the worst comes to worst, go into the back of the Piggly Wiggly and just like put a sign above your head saying “looking for a serious party. Need it right now. We'll meet you in the mayonnaise aisle.”
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Eric: Hey, it's Eric. I picked up some snacks for the mid-roll of Games and Feelings. I got 1998 Barbeque chips. So it tastes like my dad made a hamburger that's too dry on the grill. But I don't know any better because I'm eight. So, it's just delicious. We have some new members of the Patreon shout out to Amanda Silberling and Pan with a Plan. They joined at patreon.com/gamesandfeelings. And I know I've been telling you a lot over the last few weeks and you gotta join the Patreon so you get the DLC, which is the extra podcast that Amanda McLoughlin, my partner in life, love, and podcasting. And I do where we answer games questions from classic advice columns. But how about a testimony from someone else, this is from Lyle, Who is in the Games and Feelings chat in the Multitude discord: “Uh, Folks, I think I might like the DLC episodes even more than the main episodes, which are already very good.” That's just testimony, baby. And thank you again to producer level patron Polly Burridge who is a fan of the Sydney Swans, her local Australian-rules football team, and I hope she will teach me what makes Australian-rules football different than other types of football. You gotta join up patreon.com/gamesandfeelings. I think you should check out the other shows that are part of the Multitude Collective, and you would really like EXOlore. Have you ever wondered what life could be like on a planet different from our own? Or how writers create your favorite fictional worlds? Well wonder no more, because we have the facts for you. Every other week astrophysicist slash folklorist Dr. Moya McTier - I know, that exists, it's incredible - explores fictional worlds by building them with a panel of expert guests. Interviewing professional world builders or reviewing the merits of worlds that have already been built. You'll learn, you'll laugh, and you'll gain an appreciation for how special our planet really is. I've been on EXOlore, it is so much fun to do. And doing a podcast with Moya is a dream because she is so freakin smart about so many things. Subscribe today by searching for EXOlore in your podcast app or going to EXOlorepod.com. We are sponsored this week by Tab For A Cause. This is super simple. Tab For A Cause is a browser extension that lets you raise money for charity while doing your thing on line. Whenever you open a new tab, you'll see a beautiful photo and a liiittle add and part of that ad money goes toward a charity of your choice. That's it, you just sign up. You see a beautiful photo and a little ad that doesn't bother you because you're gonna go do something else immediately. And you raise money for charity, bing bang boom. Join team Games and Feelings by signing up at tabforacause.org/gamesandfeelings. It's just that simple. Let's do something good for some charities that need it. I also want to tell you about a podcast that I think you will really love. It's called A Bintel Brief. Back for its second season, The Forward turn one of the most historic advice column into a fun, modern conversational show. Each week, two very different Jewish mothers, Ginna Green, a writer and movement builder from the South, and Lynn Harris, a comedian, will come together with The Forward archivist Chana Pollack to dish on the dilemmas of Jewish-American life, identity culture, and politics. Both historic and conversational, I think you're really gonna like A Bintel Brief because I know what you need in your life more or more Jewish mothers telling you what to do. [Laughs] And I mean that positively and affirmatively, I'm already running one part of my personality, which is games. I'm doing the games advice podcast. So I need someone else to do the Jewish-mother podcast over on the other side. You can find A Bintel Brief - B I N T E L and brief like, like a short summary. You can find it anywhere that you listen to podcasts. And now back to the games.
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Eric: All right, I have another question here from Sean, Sean gave me just the regular name. So I'm going to change their name, “Too Long, Did Not Read Rules For Board Game.” [Jeremy laughs] “What's the best way for a group to learn the rules for a new game when everyone playing learns best the same way, or everyone learns best different ways?” Like people read the rules, they dive in, they listen to the rules, they watch the video, et cetera. I think this is the most applicable to board games as well. So how do you, how do you want to pick up a board game and make sure everyone gets on the same page with every, everyone's different learning styles?
Taylor: I am not a good person to answer this question. So allow me to go first. I will never let another person teach me how to play a board game again. I have passed through that phase in my life. I'm done with it. [Laughs] Last, last fall, I was with a group of people at a house in Vermont. And someone tried to teach us the game Oath, which is this big, beautiful, just, orante - the Versailles of board games. Just this wonderfully designed, decadent, large complicated thing. And like Versailles, I was very eager to get the hell out of there. [Eric laughs] Because to me, it stinks. Explaining complicated rules to board games to a group of people is just something I cannot find time in my life for anymore. It is so rarely pleasurable. I have a hard time [Laughs] empathizing with people that do it for fun!
Eric: I feel like you're, you're, I'm watching you go to a different place and just you're you're now in back in that cabin watching someone try to explain a complicated board game, I will, I like your fate, your brain is someone else as you're trying to explain this.
Taylor: Just stick to simple games! Like if you got a bunch of people, and they learn the game and people and you know that they are different kinds. Here's the thing, you know, Oath is very popular, millions of dollars on Kickstarter, I think, it was huge. And they’re the people that designed - Oh, shame on me, I'm forgetting their previous game, which was also a huge hit. But like, these are well respected beloved game designers, there are people that love this, you know, like people that would be so excited to spend a day learning the rules of a game. If you are at a group of people, and it's all of those types of people, go to town! Who, you know, maybe like, there's, there's a paper thing, someone can read it on their phone, if they don't, you know, they can just wander off, go take a bath and read it on their own, you know, somebody else can run like a little practice round for them, you know. But if you've got a bunch of different kinds of people, some of whom don't want to sit for four hours and talk about turn economy, or the three different kinds of currency in the game, then you shouldn't be playing a game with three kinds of currency in it. Just you know, get something normal out, or just talk to each other!
Eric: That's fair. A very bold answer for this is “don't play this game.”
Taylor: Don't play the game. [Laughs]
Eric: I do think, because that's interesting what you're saying I, it's wild, because it's not only that, you need to get a bunch of people who liked games together who liked this number of games. And I know all of you who are listening love games, but it's the number of people who are willing to start a new thing, collaborate with each other, and then also the thing Taylor, you just said is, “Do I like games that have three type of currencies in them?” Would you only figure out if you're halfway through the instruction manual?
Taylor: Right, right.
Jeremy: I feel like the, in my experience, because I don't play tons and tons of board games. But I'm reminded of like when I tried to learn the rules for like American football, which is like a weirdly complicated game -
Eric: Oh, yeah!
Jeremy: - as sports go.
Taylor: People don't talk about that enough! It's bonkers.
Jeremy: Yeah, it, for me, the easiest way to learn it was by watching a lot of it, or by playing it. It was the same way, actually, for D&D, which is a pretty complicated game with a number of rules that it has, like my best options are watching somebody else do it and watching them navigate the rules is extremely helpful for me. And then doing it myself also irons out a lot of the details. In the case of like a board game, where you don't have the option of watching a different group of people play it for like four or five hours before you - because you just want to go in. I think I'm gonna have to agree with Taylor: play a simpler game! [Laughs] Either find a group of people who really enjoy taking a long time learning how to play something, or just like go play Sorry.
Taylor: Yeah. Just like any other art-
Jeremy: Simpler board games that are enjoyed the world over.
Taylor: [Laughs] Yeah! You know, you gotta know your group. I mean, obviously everybody's different preferences and abilities and you know, things are comfortable with but like, what about something simple, that's physical, or something simple you can play at a table, you know, whatever. Like, you know, not every game was right for every group. In the same way that not everybody wouldn't play. You wouldn't hang Guernica in a child's, you know, in a baby’s room. [Eric and Jeremy laugh] Well, you know, it's not appropriate. You know, you're not gonna sit everybody down and watch Apocalypse Now at a party where everybody just wants to hang out and catch up. Don’t do that!
Eric: But Apocalypse Now is, is such a good movie, doesn’t everyone want to watch that one? [Laughs]
Taylor: It’s a great movie! But the thing is, not everything is right for every circumstance! Look, just sort of like mention some facts about the game that are relevant, and just watch people's expression. And if you're not good at expressions, get a friend who is to watch them for you. And if you see someone make a face, like you just said, “Oh, it's gonna be about an hour and a half with three changes on the train to get to where we're going.” And people make that face like, “do I really want to do this?” They just don't play the game. Don't do it.
Eric: That's a good idea. Jeremy, this does spark something in my, in my head. That, can you, you spend a lot of time in the UK, you usually live in the UK when there's not a global pandemic going on. Can you explain cricket to me?
Jeremy: No. [Eric laughs] I could probably explain it to you - I know there's two different types. There's one that like lasts a day. And there's one that can last like a week, like literally they can be playing the same game of cricket for a week. I know that in, they’re specific rules involved like how you pitch, which is called bowling. You have to like throw it with a straight arm and you're aiming to trot, the bowler is trying to hit wickets with, the wickets are essentially little posts. They're trying to knock those over, I think, and the batter trying to hit it. And there's a lot of like running back and forth between like, I think one batter can like, can be swapping with another batter, possibly? Like running back and forth. It's a really complicated game. But I would not be like “hey guys, none of us have ever played cricket before -” [Eric and Taylor laugh] “I know we're here, this is the wedding after party. Everybody, everybody's half drunk. Let's all get together and learn how to play cricket.” Uhh, no, watch how to play cricket. Have people who know how to play cricket come in and like play cricket with you. Be born Australian or Indian is really the answer. [Eric and Taylor laugh] You grow up with access to like people who know this stuff. And yeah, like have, it's part of the culture. And the same thing, here's my answer. If you all don't know how to play the board game yet, it's too late. You should just give up, you should have already learned how to play it. You should talk to your parents and ask them why they didn't teach you how to play this board game when you were younger. But I think you've missed the boat. It's over. Go back and play Monopoly. You casual.
Eric: Yeah, ask your parents why they didn't teach you Twilight Imperium and they'll say “well, we were too busy putting Saturn Devours His Own Child up in your, above your crib. And we just didn't have time to do it.”
Jeremy: That's a good one.
Eric: Thank you, that was the first thing I thought of when you said it.
Jeremy: Yeah, Las Meninas on the bathroom mat.
Eric: [Laughs] “I never know if my feet are clean because I'm only looking at Saturn making eye contact with the other bathmat.” Oh man, absolutely incredible. I was not anticipating that was going to be the answer and the consensus between the three of us that, just, don’t!
Taylor: I love Twilight Imperium, I miss playing that game.
Eric: The most impressive thing about Twilight Imperium is getting enough people together who want to play in Twilight Imperium and know how to play,
Taylor: Yeah, that's the thing.
Eric: It's not even the six-hours.
Jeremy: Can you guys explain to me what Twilight Imperium is? Because I've never played it. Uh, can you teach me how to play it right now on air? [Erich laughs]
Taylor: Oh, gosh.
Eric: It is like the classic longboard game. It is like the touchstone of like, you need, it has 12 different ways of getting across the galaxy. There's a fight, some of these people are leopard or tiger people, some, there are a bunch of aliens. There's just like a lot going on. It's like the, the big, long, complicated board game.
Taylor: And the rules are constantly changing. A lot of like deep funds tell you stuff, and also there's a big element of like negotiation and diplomacy between players that's unstructured. Listen, Twilight Imperium. That's, the Kaiser Wilhelm of board games. No, the new power in the east is Oath.
Jeremy: What's, what's the deal with Oath?
Taylor: Everything I just said but harder and worse.
Jeremy: Oh, yes. Perfect.
Eric: It's funny. I've never even played it. And now I want to play it, and Jeremy I feel like you will now want to play it. But now we have to learn the rules. Like I don't have a spare 12 hours to learn the rules of Twilight Imperium. I wish I could just start playing.
Jeremy: Yeah, playing it sounds great. When you described all this stuff, it sounds awesome. But I have to do a lot of like, I have to suffer and work a lot before I'm able to actually enjoy the thing, which is maybe just the problem with the game. [Laughs] I don't know!
Taylor: Video games, do it, like Elden Ring’s a punishment factory, I gather.
Jeremy: But I thought the point of that was like you enjoy the punishment and enjoy the frustration. And then once you- like you can turn the game on and begin playing the game. And then you just lose a bunch. And then you win. And then you get a huge sense of satisfaction from having won. That's my understanding of the appeal.
Taylor: That's the thing! It's about expectations, matching the work and consent. And that's the thing like Elden Ring forces that agreement on you because it's a single player thing you gotta buy and do. You wouldn't get a party together and force everyone to play Elden Ring. Unless you already know that the kind of people that would like it. You just don't do it.
Jeremy: So the answer is really that Twilight Imperium is not fungible enough.
Eric: [Laughs] Gotta make it more fungible. Honestly, Twilight Imperium sounds like an NFT group of people.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Taylor: Yeah.
Eric: Which I'm now very, very afraid about.
Jeremy: It sounds like a, Yeah, it sounds like the new thing in NFT's, like, “You guys. Are you guys getting into Twilight Imperium?”
Eric: 12 different types of economy tokens? Yeah, that sounds like NFT's to me.
Jeremy: Yeah. Instead of like the monkeys, it's like cat and tiger people, like you were saying.
Eric: The box, on the box it's so epic. It truly is like, there's a ship and a tiger person. And like an explosion, and the word Twilight Imperium in very large letters, like we're talking about a Cold War documentary. And it's very enticing. But you know that there's danger in that box.
Jeremy: That danger is the blockchain.
Eric: [Laughs] Incredible. Guys, we ended up talking about NFT's for so long, we can't get to our query portion. I can do this really quickly. At the end, I do Queries from the Internet where I find something in the internet that we can use as a prompt. I dove into the Yahoo Answers archive, we can do this super quickly. Someone got on, anonymous user 15 years ago, got on Yahoo Answers and asked: “In the game of Truth or Dare what could be a good dare?” They're having a sleepover and they don't know any good dares, from 15 years ago. Can you say a good dare for Truth or Dare.
Jeremy: Dare someone to cut off a section of their bedding and then eat it. Like not, not like a metal part but like the fabric. So like say you have a sleeping bag, take some scissors cut off like a little section little tiny like two inch wide piece of, of sleeping bag and then you just got to eat it.
Eric: That's pretty good. I do like that.
Taylor: That’s a rough - that would kill someone. [Jeremy and Taylor laugh] That would kill some people.
Jeremy: I suppose. Yeah.
Taylor: I have only ever experienced Truth or Dare as a way to explore and tease out adolescent sexuality. So I cannot conceive it outside of those terms.
Jeremy: Yeah, it's an excuse to find out who likes who.
Taylor: It's an excuse to find out who likes who, and who is willing to kiss. But I can't recommend that to anybody.
Eric: I think that is for, that is fine, though. I think that like if you were to say like this person seems trepidatious of saying “hey, you want to kiss” as the dare? And I think that like you're, we it's, like yeah, if you're if you're still in the part of your life that you're playing truth or dare, throw caution to the wind. You know, if it's, they'll say, if you say “hey, do you want to kiss” someone's gonna say no and throw a Mountain Dew bottle at your head. And you're like, “this person does not like me, perfect. We have that resolved.”
Taylor: [Laughs] I am not recommending using social pressure to coerce anyone to kiss.
Jeremy: “It’s the social contract of the game! You agreed! You’re out if you say no, you knew!” [Eric laughs]
Taylor: Here's, here's me walking into a room where a bunch of kids are playing Truth or Dare: “You don't want to play Oath?!”
Eric: You just didn't get to the part in Oath where you, everyone needs to kiss each other in order to get to the second half of the game.
Taylor: Fuck!! Oh, you know, what's a good date? You know what’s a good nonsexual - well, potentially nonsexual, dare: karaoke.
Eric: Oooh, yeah.
Taylor: Make someone do a karaoke song.
Jeremy: Yeah, that's a really cool - and you get to pick the song?
Taylor: Maybe you want to pitch a song -
Eric: That is nice.
Taylor: You can get karaoke versions of anything on YouTube. Now, that's great. I love that.
Jeremy: I'm completely on board with that. That's a great idea.
Eric: You know what, guys, this advice is non-fungible, it's locked in. And I think we really did help all the gamers out there. And I very much appreciate you two coming on Games and Feelings to address both games and feelings. Where can people find you on the internet?
Jeremy: I'm Jeremy Cobb. Hey, I'm one third of Three Black Halflings, as Eric said. We are a TTRPG slash nerd talkshow podcast. We have interviews including with Eric, actually. But all sorts of like D&D luminaries, we talk about how to play D&D, DM tips, player tips. We talk about nerd stuff. We have an ongoing series that hopefully will not get a third installment of the fiasco surrounding Ray Fisher and the production of Justice League in the way he was treated by the producers, Warner Brothers and Joss Whedon now, ugh. I hope there is no part three. Or if there's a part three, it's just about how Ray Fisher is having huge success.
Eric: I want to plug this specifically, the ones where you guys tackle bad things happening in the world. Honestly, the only way I want to consume the bad things that are happening in the nerd space is from Three Black Halflings. Truly.
Jeremy: [Laughs] Well, thank you. There are a few of those. So go check those out. We did one I think that people really enjoyed last year, where we were talking about the backlash that Critical Role has faced over their third campaign and the opening seat credit sequence that they created, that a lot of people enjoyed that one. And we also do quite a lot of actual play. We, I think the series, the best series to start with is we have a series called Outlaws and Obelisks, which is a post-apocalyptic North Africa inspired Western D&D. I'm DMing it, came out last year, we're probably going to try and do a second season. Fun, fun, fun, fun, fun. And if you want to follow Three Black Halflings, you can find us @3BlackHalflings on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Pornhub, OnlyFans and Craigslist. You can also follow us on Patreon. patreon.com/tbhalflings. And if you like me, and you enjoy the jokes that I told and want to see my Twitter where I tell very few jokes. You can find me on Twitter @JeremyCobb1, that's Cobb with two B's and the number one
Taylor: Yeah, and same.
Jeremy: Yeah, actually Taylor is also one of the three black halflings. Yeah, it's caused some controversy because he is not black. [Eric and Taylor laugh]
Taylor: I stand in the background silently during the show. Like you know Mighty Mighty Bosstones had a guy that just danced on stage. I'm like that. No, you can find me online on all platforms. I am @TaylorDotBiz, the biz is for business. You can also listen to all the shows I make, Rude Tales of Magic, Fun City, and Oh These Those Stars of Space.
Eric: Wonderful. I am so happy to get both of you on here. Like I said, sometimes a podcast is just an excuse to see people again and I you two are so funny and making such incredible stuff that I really appreciate it. You can cut this out but sorry I referenced all the people who died earlier.
Taylor: I hope you keep it in, I thought it was very funny. [Jeremy laughs] I’ve got to mention John Prine’s dead body so I liked that bit.
Eric: If you want to follow me on Twitter, you can find me there on @el_silvero, my name if I was a lucha libre wrestler, you can find the show on Twitter @gamesnfeelings, with an N. It was too long otherwise, so it's kind of like Linens n’ Things. I hope you will appreciate that. If you want to submit your question to the show, you can go to our website gamesandfeelings.com/questions, that has kind of the Questions tab of the website, or you can see all the links in the episode description. And if you want to support the show, check us out, patreon.com/gamesandfeelings. I think that's everything. We've covered everything from NFTs to hoping that Taylor had more time to play Elden Ring. And remember -
Taylor: Oh god, please.
Eric: - the instruction manual doesn't have anything on feelings.