I Set My Friend Up On a Date and She Drank Milk! with Amanda McLoughlin
Welcome back to The Replay where Eric & Amanda reply to the games questions that people write in to advice columnists. This episode, we dive deep into two incredibly buckwild advice questions. They’re not about games, per se, but isn’t content creation a game of it’s own?
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- Host, Producer, & Question Keeper: Eric Silver
- Advice Curator & Wife: Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor & Mixer: Mischa Stanton
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About Us
Games and Feelings is an advice podcast about being human and loving all types of games: video games, tabletop games, party games, laser tag, escape rooms, game streams, and anything else that we play for fun. Join Question Keeper Eric Silver and a revolving cast of guests as they answer your questions at the intersection of fun and humanity, since, you know, you gotta play games with other people. Whether you need a game recommendation, need to sort out a dispute at the table, or decide whether an activity is good for a date, we’re your instruction manual. New episodes drop every other Friday.
[theme song plays]
ERIC: Hello, gamers! Welcome to Games and Feelings, an advice show about playing games, being human, and remembering those games involve other humans. I am your question keeper as always, Eric Silver. And the activity in my life that I want to replace with a Quicktime event, or a mini-game, is riding on public transportation.
AMANDA: Ooh.
ERIC: Not driving, but if I could get on the subway and then hit like X, A, L, whatever or, like, I use the Ocarina of Time to go from the A to the L to where I'm going, that would be really helpful.
AMANDA: Oh, my God. That'd be incredible. I'm picturing it like, uh, like that game where you have to hop between cars across the road.
ERIC: Oh, yeah. It could be like Crossy Road or—
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: —it could be Frogger.
AMANDA: Yeah, Frogger.
ERIC: That would work, too.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: Love it.
ERIC: Amanda, hey, my wife, Amanda McLoughlin.
AMANDA: What up?
ERIC: What—what human activity would you replace with a mini-game or a Quicktime event?
AMANDA: Mine would be getting ready in the morning. If I could, uh—
ERIC: Mmm.
AMANDA: —have one of those things where it's like the, um, the circle is moving by and then you have to, like, hit a button just when the circle matches the hole that matches the circle. You know what I mean? And then suddenly, I have, like, my makeup and hair done, and I'm showered, and I'm dressed. That'd be incredible.
ERIC: I'm concerned about that if only that— if you don't hit the thing. I think it has more ramifications. Like, you can't— I guess you would have to redo— I'm thinking about this as if this was a real mechanic like—
AMANDA: Oh, sure.
ERIC: If you missed it, I think that there's— maybe there's, like, a target on it. Like, if it's going around in a circle.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
ERIC: And there'd be— there'd be like a red space, a yellow space, and a green space, and then a super space.
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: So I feel like you'd be walking around with yellow stuff more often than not.
AMANDA: Yeah. Okay. Maybe then it's like—
ERIC: Like mid— you'd have mid— makeup on the whole time.
AMANDA: Like— like when I— like when I— uh, when I hit my eye shadow with my eyeliner and I'm like, "Well, shit. That's my whole day. Now, I have to restart this whole thing."
ERIC: Right.
AMANDA: No—
ERIC: And then it's like— well, 30— like the time still moves.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: Like you're still 30 minutes forward.
AMANDA: Okay. Okay.
ERIC: But then it's, like, set. It's, like, Click.
AMANDA: All right.
ERIC: Do you remember the Adam Sandler movie, Click?
AMANDA: Yes, of course I do.
ERIC: So it's like you're speeding through it, and then it remembers you speed through it. So then— but then you don't get control over that part of your life anymore.
AMANDA: That's true. Maybe instead it's like the— sort of— um, uh, you didn't play this when you were a kid, Eric, I'm guessing. But there were a lot of PC games where Barbie rode horses. Um, and—
ERIC: Oh, I know about it.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah.
ERIC: It's— it's fodder for most game YouTubes now.
AMANDA: Oh, well, good. I mean, they were good games. Uh, but I— you know, you— you kind of, like, swish over the closet, like you could swish —
ERIC: Hmm.
AMANDA: —the pants, swish a blazer, and you can swish like a makeup style, I'm imagining. So maybe I could just, like, step into that, like swish, swish, swish, and I hit randomize. And sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. But then if it's bad, I could just, like, swish over another set of hands and then it works.
ERIC: Randomize it, yeah. I mean, we're just talking about character creation now.
AMANDA: That's true.
ERIC: I think the biggest problem about this is that it would have to be real-time time.
AMANDA: Hmm.
ERIC: So, like, you would spend three hours every morning doing your character creation.
AMANDA: Okay. Well, now, I don't think that was such a good fit anymore.
ERIC: Yeah, I mean—
AMANDA: Oh.
ERIC: Listen, we have fashions in Pokemon. You're talking to me like I don't know. Like, I don't spend all—
AMANDA: Yeah, that's true.
ERIC: —my time doing fashions.
AMANDA: That's true.
ERIC: That's all Tears of the Kingdom, is fashions with some small, minor mechanical benefits on it.
AMANDA: Yeah. I wasn't gonna bring it up, but you— you s— flip fashions while, like, falling, climbing, riding a horse—
ERIC: Oh, you have to.
AMANDA: —exquisitely.
ERIC: You have to.
AMANDA: Very fun to watch.
ERIC: You got to switch to the thing that makes me a bird with a wingsuit—
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: —so that— when I'm flying through the air.
AMANDA: It's incredible. I don't like the one that makes your eyes all glowy, though. A little too creepy.
ERIC: Oh, I like that one. That one's my favorite.
AMANDA: A little too creepy.
ERIC: That's why it's spooky. You're supposed to scare people and you have better attack. You can tell, because we're the only husband and wife in podcasting, this is the Replay - where Amanda and I replay and reply to advice questions throughout the ages, mostly about games, but sometimes about competition and sometimes about baking. And sometimes about whatever, uh, is happening on the Slate website. It's usually advice of some sort.
AMANDA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: Um, so we are— we're doing this on the main feed. Remember, if you like this, if you like what's happening, just pop on over to patreon.com/gamesandfeelings where we do this on the Patreon. We get— you get bonus stuff. We have, like, over 30 episodes, so that's—
AMANDA: Every other week, baby.
ERIC: Yeah. 20-30 episodes. It's a round number. It's a big round number.
AMANDA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: Uh, so we're not going to do games that are giving us feelings this week because I have something special for you.
AMANDA: What?
ERIC: I found an advice question that I could not give up. It's— you know, listen, I'm still out there in the content mines. I still— I'm on Twitter.
AMANDA: Always.
ERIC: Because there's still good things out there. The thing is, is that much like— it's like I'm in a little barricaded area with a zombie apocalypse, where the zombies are Nazis and they're Nazi zombies.
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: So I— there’s still— it's still good because I want to be plugged into the internet and what the internet has to offer us. You can still grow things from a farm in the zombie apocalypse.
AMANDA: Okay.
ERIC: Uh, so I have a very specific question for you. It's not about games, but it is a advice question.
AMANDA: Okay.
ERIC: I need— it really embodies what we do here.
AMANDA: I'm ready.
ERIC: This is from May 25th, 2023.
AMANDA: Oh, a fresh one.
ERIC: Very recent.
AMANDA: A fresh one.
ERIC: This is from Dear Prudence.
AMANDA: Uh-oh.
ERIC: Advice from Jenee Desmond-Harris. Once again, shout-out to Jenee Desmond-Harris. She's doing— she's doing a hard thing.
AMANDA: She's doing a difficult job.
ERIC: She's doing an advice— she's doing an advice column in the year of our Lord 2023. Definitely put there under some glass ceiling expectations.
AMANDA: Set up to fail, yeah.
ERIC: Definitely set up to fail. She gives bad advice a lot.
AMANDA: She does. She also crowdsources things often. Uh, Twitter showed me her tweets, uh, recently, around like, "Hey, haha, this question is hard. What should I say?" And— and she— she's like tweeting through it in a way that I—
ERIC: Hmm.
AMANDA: — I can empathize with if this is your job, um, but also, I don't love the product almost any of the time.
ERIC: Yeah. Okay. Uh, so I'm hiding everything about this. I'm not telling you the headline. I'm not giving you the name.
AMANDA: Okay.
ERIC: I need to just read the question for you, okay?
AMANDA: Okay.
ERIC: Are you ready?
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: All right. "Dear Prudence. I, a married woman, just set up a single male co-worker and a single female friend of mine on a blind date. He's a sharp guy who's traveled the world and knows all about fine foods, wines, classical music, designer labels, et cetera." Again, every single person who writes into the Slate, like, lives in the best apartment you've ever seen in your entire life.
AMANDA: Yeah. This guy sounds terrible, but continue.
ERIC: Okay. Yeah. So, she's working— you know that they work at, like, Northrop Grumman or some— like—
AMANDA: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
ERIC: —they make— they make weapons that only do headshots on immigrants.
AMANDA: No. Oh, no.
ERIC: Do you know what I mean?
AMANDA: Oh, no.
ERIC: And she's writing in to Dear Prudence. Okay, and the guy, he's a sharp dresser. He loves classical music and designer labels.
AMANDA: Okay.
ERIC: And she's a stunningly beautiful and intelligent artist. I bet she's like a five.
AMANDA: Hmm, oh, boy.
ERIC: Right? Right?
AMANDA: Yeah. Do they live in, like, a converted factory that displaced people in, like, Pittsburgh or something?
ERIC: She definitely does.
AMANDA: You know? Yeah.
ERIC: She definitely does. No, she's doing that, but it's in Brooklyn.
AMANDA: Ooh.
ERIC: Um, okay. "I really"— or it's like in San Francisco. "I really thought they'd make a great couple. Immediately after the date, my friend thought it had gone well and was very excited." So remember, it's co-worker and friend.
AMANDA: Yes, yes.
ERIC: Okay. "On Monday morning, I asked my co-worker and he said my friend was attractive and a nice person." ‘Body slamming, seemed nice.’ "But he wouldn't be asking for a second date. My friend was bewildered by her difficulty in finding a steady relationship, so I pressed him as to why."
AMANDA: No. Oh, don't do that. That's so stressful.
ERIC: "He told me they went to a swanky bar and she—"
AMANDA: Oh, no.
ERIC: "—wait for it," it's written there.
AMANDA: Okay.
ERIC: "She, wait for it, ordered a plain glass of milk."
AMANDA: Wow. Damn.
ERIC: "He found this so clueless and childish that he couldn't imagine being with her. Now, my friend is neither a big drinker nor a teetotaler, just someone who is going to order what she wants without worrying about what others think."
AMANDA: No.
ERIC: "Should I tell her why she won't be hearing from this guy again, so she can reconsider ordering milk on dates in the future? Should I tell him how ridiculous he is for judging someone for something so petty?"
AMANDA: No.
ERIC: This is from ‘Dairy Disorder’ and the name of this article is, "Help! I set up a co-worker and a friend on a blind date. Her drink order ruined everything."
AMANDA: Oh, boy.
ERIC: It was milk. She ordered milk.
AMANDA: Oh, everybody did the wrong thing in this letter as usual. This is a tasty treat egg. Thank you for bringing it.
ERIC: Thank you. I think that, like, I kind of know what your answer is. Okay. Let's— uh, let's theoretically suppose that, like, you were Dear Prudence. What would you say?
AMANDA: I would say, ‘You are writing this letter to clown on your friend, first of all. Like, thinking about— you— you ask this not because you want to meddle, because you're gonna meddle, because you're a meddler.’ The letter writer has— is clearly a meddler.
ERIC: Oh, I thought they wanted, like, an Olympic medal in, like, being a good person.
AMANDA: No, no, no, no, no.
ERIC: No, you like to— you like to get in their business. Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah, like— like to get in the mix. Uh, secondly, I would say, uh, ‘You should never have set them up in the first place. This is a terrible idea. Don't— don't cross the streams of work and friendship. And also, your friend is not asking for your— if— unless she's specifically saying, 'Please ply your coworker for information as to why he isn't asking for a second date.' Don't get involved. That's crazy.’
ERIC: Oh, do you think that— I didn't even consider this. Do you think that girl set up-ee did not want to be set up?
AMANDA: Probably not.
ERIC: This is real like— this is real like, ‘lol, I'm doing this and then I'm gonna tweet about it later’ energy.
AMANDA: Yeah. Unless the setup to this letter was like, ‘Hey, I, you know, had a barbecue with friends and co-workers, and two of these people hit it off. And then each of them asked me if I could give each other their number, and then they went out.’ No, no. She set them up.
ERIC: Oh, I didn't even think about that, that woman set up-ee did not want this.
AMANDA: Probably didn't want this or maybe— maybe she's like a single friend that her married friend is constantly trying to get married off, which is terrible.
ERIC: Oh, it's a real Company situation?
AMANDA: Yeah, exactly.
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: And then it's like, ‘I work with a man who is not married and I think dates women. Here you go.’ Like that's— that's what it sounds like. Uh, and I can't believe both of them said yes. I can't believe she set up her co-worker and her friend. Again, maybe if you're a boomer and this woman is in her 40s or they're like— I don't know. I'm in my 30s. Like, uh, none of this— I would never be in this situation. Before we even get to the question of whether it was buck wild ordering milk at a bar. Whether it was buck wild to say, ‘I'm not asking you out again, because you ordered milk at a bar.’
ERIC: I think it's fine to not want to date someone who orders milk at a bar. I think that, like, either they're very quirky internally. And I'm using quirky. I shouldn't say quirky. They're like intentionally weird. Being a weird person is part of their personality. It feels like something—that feels like something that it is. Or this person is doing it as a prank, because they didn't want to be set up. Those are the only two choices. And I only thought of the first one before we came into this recording.
AMANDA: Yeah, I— I don't— I can't conceive of a person who would find themselves in a bar and order a glass of milk. That's—
ERIC: Right. Exactly.
AMANDA: I— I—
ERIC: That's why I'm saying it has to be intentional.
AMANDA: I know. I— I think it has to be intentional or, like, maybe, you know, she read in Ask E. Jean. Uh, you know, the—
ERIC: God.
AMANDA: —like, ‘order something weird on the first date and, like, see what people think of it as, like, a test.’ Like, either we're in a Sex and the City episode and, like, she's doing it to test him—
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: —or he is saying like, ‘Oh, yeah.’ Like, you know, like a Seinfeld-ian almost— you know, ‘Oh, based on what they ordered, I'm not gonna ask them out anymore.’ I completely understand that. I— I would also like—
ERIC: This does feel like something George and Jerry came up with.
AMANDA: Yeah. I would— I would tell the story if—
ERIC: ‘I don't know how to get out of this date, Jerry.’
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: ‘I don't know. Here's what you do. You order milk at the bar.’ Like, ‘it's genius. I won't be offended. I don't have any— I don't have any self-esteem in the first place.’
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: ‘So it doesn't even matter.’
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: ‘That's gold, Jerry, gold!’ Yes.
AMANDA: There you go.
ERIC: Yeah. That's very funny. Um, I also love the description from question asker about what guy set up person had said. That he called her childish. He found this so clueless and childish. He probably said— and I bet she's his boss, but I'd be like— I'd be — uh, if I was saying or something, I'm like, ‘What the fuck was that? That's ridiculous.’ Like, childish and— clueless and childish is such, like, reprimanding.
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: That I think is only— is interpolated what the guy actually said being like, ‘Uh, she did something really weird and I don't like that.’
AMANDA: You can not go out on a date with somebody for any reason you want. You know? Like, you can—
ERIC: Yeah. He could've just said no.
AMANDA: —you can decline a second— you can— right. You can decline the first date, but also—
ERIC: Oh, sorry. Yes. The guy, the guy.
AMANDA: Yeah. But he— he could also say like, ‘Yeah. I wasn't vibing, wasn't feeling it.’ I— I have every certainty that she is his boss and she pressed him until he could not say— he could not demur any further before saying, ‘Listen, she ordered a glass of milk as her drink and it was really weird. And I— I'm gonna say no.’ Uh, I— I don't think he volunteered that. As much as I am judging him a little bit for the letter writer's description of him as like a world traveler who loves cuisine and designers.
ERIC: Yeah, for sure. For sure.
AMANDA: It— this sounds like— she's like, ‘Look, like he earns a lot of money. Like, why wouldn't want— won't— won't you go out with him?’ And the idea that two—
ERIC: Right.
AMANDA: —people could just, like, not be picking up on the vibe or, like, have a weird experience and decline to move forward, like she thinks is ridiculous.
ERIC: ‘Why won't you date Lazor Wulf?’
AMANDA: Right.
ERIC: ‘He's such a good businessman in his town of Anatevka.’
AMANDA: Yeah. But—
ERIC: ‘He does— he loves designer— he loves designer brands!’
AMANDA: But also like how— I mean, I guess the people who read and write into Dear Prudence may not necessarily be online, like they skew older. They—
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: You know? So, like, I don't know how you write this letter to somebody and don't expect you're going to be Twitter's main character whenever it publishes.
ERIC: A lot of people don't, and I know that there's a whole thing. We can actually get into this. We should do that as one of the episodes about the guy who used to write into, um, Daniel Lavery’s—
AMANDA: Oh, yes.
ERIC: —Dear Prudence as a fake.
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: Like just because he was a failed novelist and he—
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: —was bored. There was a whole article about that. It was crazy.
AMANDA: Yeah. He, like, came clean after Danny left, uh, the position.
ERIC: Yeah. And published, like, 10 of his letters, which were all, like, cribbed from plays or something.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: It was wild. But, yeah, no. You're— you're absolutely right. I think that just what— Jenee Desmond-Harrris, what bothers me so much about it is that she knows too much that she's being looked at under a microscope.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: And I feel like she's playing to not get yelled at—
AMANDA: Probably.
ERIC: —which is something we see from content creators all over the place. Which is why I'm so baffled by her answer here. So let's come— Let's come down to the thing here. Is that like— I think someone's being hinky here, something's being weird, and I don't like it. Someone— I'd be like, ‘I want to have a conversation with all of you.’
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: ‘What is the power dynamics between you and co-worker? Does he feel like he had to take you up on this date?’
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: ‘Do you—’
AMANDA: ‘Why do you feel so responsible for, like, setting up your friend who seems like happy and fine?’
ERIC: ‘And why did your friend drink milk on a date?’ I would ask the question of why she did that. If the answer is ‘she's living her truth,’ you knew that from your weird quirky artist friend. Remember, she— she's a professional artist.
AMANDA: I mean, yeah, she describes her as an artist. I know. I know. Yeah.
ERIC: Or if— and then it gives her an opportunity to say, ‘I didn't want to go on that date.’ And then I'd be like, ‘Okay. I'll stop setting you up. I wish we had talked about that.’ That's what I would say.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: In this— to response here - and I think that you led me down that path.
AMANDA: Yeah. Letter writer seems like an asshole and I bet both people are kind of, like, giving her the answer that will get her to stop asking questions.
ERIC: Right.
AMANDA: And that is—
ERIC: It's like co-worker had to do it, because they’re co-workers, and friend was—
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: —like, ‘I don't like it when you set me up on dates. Like you're in Anatevka.’
AMANDA: Yeah. Maybe the artist friend, I don't know, doesn't want to date for a variety of reasons.
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: Maybe she's in a relationship and humoring you, and, like, giving you an answer that's like, ‘I don't know. Like, I— I can never find a— find a man.’
ERIC: Right.
AMANDA: And then, like, leave it at that. It's easier.
ERIC: Or maybe the artist is not nice and—
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: —pranked this man.
AMANDA: Possible.
ERIC: Also true. Okay. So here's the answer. Remember, the question was, "Should I tell her why she won't be hearing from this guy again? Should I tell him how ridiculous he is for judging someone?" So it seems like question asker also thinks that he was being too rash by judging someone for ordering milk. And also she— she's like, ‘Should I tell my friend the truth that she's turning off prospective mates?’ Okay. So here's the answer from Jenee Desmond-Harris.
AMANDA: Oh, I'm sweating. Okay.
ERIC: Okay. "Dear Dairy Disorder"— and just hoot and holler while you're doing this, like you— stop me at any point. "I firmly believe that if a man is really attracted to and interested in a woman, she could order a glass of French onion soup and he'd be fine with it."
AMANDA: No, that's not how dating works. Okay.
ERIC: "This was not the guy for your friend. She does things that he finds clueless and childish. She doesn't want to be in a relationship with someone who feels that way about her or someone who doesn't think her beauty and intelligence makes her clueless and childish behaviors sort of charming."
AMANDA: Oh.
ERIC: "She should not hide who she is or what she likes on dates." Jenee Desmond-Harris again taking what— this question on face value. "The idea here is not to fake a personality so she can be paired up with someone you think is a fit for her. It's to keep being herself until she comes across someone who's actually right for her."
AMANDA: I mean, that's just like—
ERIC: Again, Jenee Desmond-Harris not being online, thinking that she actually— the woman set up actually likes ordering milk on dates.
AMANDA: Listen, this— this is— this is the world and society. You can be—
ERIC: Mm-hmm.
AMANDA: —yourself until it runs up against people's expectations.
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: And when you are yourself in ways that cause other people to judge you, you have to, like, know and accept those consequences.
ERIC: Isn't this the most basic premise of romantic stories—
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: —in modern times?
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: That you can't show all of yourself during the courting process. You got to slowly mete it out, because you're meeting each other and that's how dating works?
AMANDA: Like you dress up, you know, nicely for dates.
ERIC: You look nice. Yeah.
AMANDA: You don't wear like— uh, you know, I wear schlubby house clothes 50% of the time.
ERIC: If you're the kind of person who wears—
AMANDA: Uh, you know?
ERIC: —sweatpants all the time, I don't—
AMANDA: Right.
ERIC: No judgment. Let's say you wear sweatpants or yoga pants all the time. Would you then, authentically yourself, go out on a date wearing this clothing you always wear?
AMANDA: No.
ERIC: No. Absolutely not.
AMANDA: And I don't think that's like a moral failing.
ERIC: No.
AMANDA: I think— because, like, dating is all about— like, you know, if you pass somebody on the street, you have a hundred percent preconceived notions based on how they are acting without knowing who they are as a person. And when you know somebody very, very deeply you, you know, understand them a hundred percent, you know who they are inside, regardless of how they, like, appear and act on the outside. Everything about dating is progressing from point A to point B.
ERIC: Right.
AMANDA: You— you start out on best behavior, you go to a nice place. You probably, you know, don't order something like bizarre or stinky that will be kissing later.
ERIC: Hell yes, exactly. It's like—
AMANDA: That's normal.
ERIC: —how— how many times do people order salads on dates? Not because they want—
AMANDA: They want salad, yeah.
ERIC: Not because they want salad, but because one, it makes them look healthy, regardless of gender—
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: —I would say. And regardless of the sexuality of the people in the relationships. But two, easy to eat. You're using a fork—
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: —and the amount of dressing you can put on it is up to you.
AMANDA: Yeah. Uh, like, again, not that that is required and if you, you know, meet somebody when you're, like, disheveled on your way home from something, you know, ridiculous and you fall in love, good for you.
ERIC: Then we call it a meet-cute.
AMANDA: That's a meet-cute!
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: But for— for the vast majority of people, you don't begin as you intend to end.
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: You— you begin to get to know the person without stuff in the way.
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: Like, if Eric— I was talking to you and you had stuff in your teeth. I'd be like, ‘Babe, stuff in your teeth." And you'd be like, "Dope. Don't— thank you." Uh, and—
ERIC: I wouldn't say that's my authentic self.
AMANDA: Right? Yeah. And that doesn't— that doesn't— uh, I don't know. This is— this— either she—
ERIC: No, I agree— I agree with you.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: I think that, like, the whole point of what we do here on the Replay, where we look at advice columns— advice columns are supposed to reflect what society thinks.
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: And, like, by— the whole reason you write in is because the advice giver is supposed to be society maven. Like all the way back to Dear Abby.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: Because, like, she was crone. We were asking her for advice on what to do in our lives. AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: And then she told us prevailing wisdom. Jenee Desmond-Harris came in and said, "No, I'm going to do the thing that's gonna get me the most likes and the most people go, ‘Wow, so empowering.’ And that's not helpful in what this— the form is supposed to be.
AMANDA: Yeah. Like, a— a classical advice column would be— you know, I— ‘what do I bring as a hostess gift,’ right?
ERIC: Mm-hmm.
AMANDA: Or, like, ‘someone was a jerk to me, do I still have to give them a present for their wedding?’
ERIC: Right.
AMANDA: The answer is yes. Like— just like what does society dictate and when do exceptions kind of give you a pass? Because you're close to the situation, you don't know what is right based on, like, what society thinks is right. And so that is what it's for. It's not to say like, ‘I'm sure you know, you and this person because they're the person closest to you and the one whose side you, letter writer, is on is right.’ That's not useful.
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: Um, and I— I think this is wild. I think if you go out and you order a glass of milk at a bar, people are gonna be like, ‘Wow, that's a choice. Tell me about that,’ in the best-case scenario. And be like—
ERIC: Right.
AMANDA: —‘Huh. Okay. Goodbye,’ in the worst. And maybe that is her goal, maybe it's performance art, maybe she is pulling a prank.
ERIC: I really feel like it's pranks or performance art.
AMANDA: I hope it's performance art.
ERIC: If she has a TikTok camera somewhere—
AMANDA: Yeah, right.
ERIC: —that’d be like— Yeah, you're right.
AMANDA: She's an artist, who knows what that means?
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: Uh, or maybe— maybe she is a person who flouts society's rules and—
ERIC: Mmm.
AMANDA: —is like, ‘You know what? If you don't love me at my ordering milk at a bar, you don't deserve me at my, uh, drinking water in the park,’ or whatever. Like, okay. But that is a choice she is making and this guy is not being a judgmental, rude asshole for being like, ‘Wow. Um, that was a lot.’
ERIC: ‘I don't wanna date someone who drinks milk on a first date.’ I think that's also fine. I truly think that's fine, because, again, you're making expectations. You've never met this person. You're being set up, right? The first thing you know, and I assume they ordered a drink in the first five minutes of the date.
AMANDA: Sure.
ERIC: One of the first things you find out about someone is that someone decided in this situation, in social situations, to flaunt the rules at my expense, and that makes me feel bad. If someone did this on a date, I'd be like, ‘I feel like you're just fucking with me.’ And then I would walk away.
AMANDA: Yeah. And dating is all about— like, in the same way that if somebody is 20 minutes late to your first date and you're—
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: —like, ‘You know what? This sucks, and I don't like that, and I'm gonna move on.’ Like, you are— you are essentially looking for red flags on a first date a lot—
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: —of the time, right? And reasons to, you know, say like, ‘Hmm, I don't know if this is gonna work,’ and then you move on, and find out if there are good reasons to stay.
ERIC: Yeah. Going back to the matchmaker— or question asker, what you said about like, ‘He's rich. Just date him.’ Again, for him, he's like, ‘You're single. Here's a hot lady.’ The expectation that this should go perfectly— Dating is about realizing what you want and if this person fits what you want.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: Especially a first date, a hundred percent a first date—
AMANDA: And—
ERIC: —when you're trying to make a first expectation.
AMANDA: Exactly. And I'm— I'm really interested too in, like, the legacy of Danny Lavery’s Dear Prudence, which really, like, revitalized it from that transphobic asshole who had the—
ERIC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
AMANDA: —position before him. Um, but a lot of the time, the— the advice he was giving, like, you know, A) as like, um, uh, a queer person and trans person in that position, people could write in for advice questions that otherwise just like wouldn't get picked and they would feel—
ERIC: Danny Lavery really, really, really dark questions on Dear Prudence.
AMANDA: Exactly.
ERIC: Remember when we went to the live show?
AMANDA: Yeah. No, it was a lot.
ERIC: And the questions were un— unmoderated.
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: And someone was— came up and did a question about sexual assault immediately.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: As soon as the mic went out, I walked out, I couldn't deal with it.
AMANDA: It was very heavy, um, but it— I— I wonder if part of this is like— a— a lot of his answers were for the first time being like, ‘Hey, you don't have to have a reason to break up with somebody. Like you— you can just do it.’ That— that became the refrain and then starts to feed into itself where, like, people looking for that kind of advice would write in for that kind of advice, and then, like, it became kind of monotonous. I wonder if— if, you know, Desmond-Harris is, like, working under this, uh, sort of legacy of, you know—
ERIC: Mmm.
AMANDA: —people writing in to be like, ‘It's fine to judge this person for this reason, right?’ Or, like, ‘I'm right, right?’ And, ultimately, that is all of advice columns, but especially— I don't know, maybe some— some ethicist, uh, PhD student will do a close reading of these archives at some point. Um, but it— it feels— it does— I'm feeling a—
ERIC: Was that a tease? What was— what was that?
AMANDA: No, no, no. No, I'm feeling a hypothesis brewing, like I— I think writing in to
say—
ERIC: This is like, ‘I'm under NDA, but I have a project going where I’m just wondering—’
AMANDA: No. No, no, no. No. Uh, I think people write in to say, uh, ‘I'm right to judge this person, right?’
ERIC: Of course. That's advice questions.
AMANDA: And that has— that has only been truer and truer of Slate as time has gone on.
ERIC: Right. And I wish that someone will be like, ‘No. Just stop.’
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: ‘Just stop.’ Like, there needs to be more interrogation of why the question asker asks the question. That's all we do on this show.
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: And no one ever does this in the actual answers.
AMANDA: I totally agree. And, like, you have to— there should be a box you have to check when writing into an advice column that says like, ‘The answer might be, 'I'm wrong’.’
ERIC: Right.
AMANDA: And I feel as if none of these questions that we tend to answer, uh, fall under that domain, for Slate, at least.
ERIC: No, for Slate— I mean, Slate is just constantly, like, trying to pick the most buck wild question.
AMANDA: Yes, of course.
ERIC: Which is why, uh, fake questions come on all the time.
AMANDA: I hope this one's fake.
ERIC: I don't think it's fake.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: I don't know. It's a little too basic.
AMANDA: I know. Advice in like—
ERIC: You can imagine someone writing it—
AMANDA: —in twin cities or, like, Dallas-Fort Worth.
ERIC: Oh, man. I just— I guess I always assume it's New Yorkers writing in and you're 100% correct.
AMANDA: Uh-uh. No, this is giving like work at a contractor like government manufacturer.
ERIC: Yeah, they only headshot immigrants. I told you.
AMANDA: Um, yes.
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: Dark.
ERIC: It's the world we live in. That's the same person. The same person who's, like, giving a government grant to the US Military—
AMANDA: No, I know.
ERIC: —is also, um, the person who writes into Dear Prudence. And also someone— oh, did I tell you about the— the conflict? It was— the— the scandal, the— the drama happening on tabletop RPG Twitter a little while ago about how an active US army serviceman—
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: —won an award for tabletop arch— RPG—
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: —work.
AMANDA: I do remember that.
ERIC: Hilarious.
AMANDA: What a world. What a world.
ERIC: Hilarious. It's like, ‘All right. Well, after I headshot a bunch of people who live in the Middle East, I'm just gonna work on like— I'm gonna go just do some freelance work for Wizards of the Coast.’
AMANDA: Wild.
ERIC: Wild.
AMANDA: Now, I'm thinking like— listen, if this woman loves milk so much, she should have asked him on a milkshake date. Imagining being— like, ‘Hey—’
ERIC: Amanda, she doesn't like milk.
AMANDA: ‘—for our first date, you wanna go to Sonic?’ No, I know. I know. I know.
ERIC: She doesn't like milk.
AMANDA: All the things I'm trying to think of, uh, involve her genuinely really liking milk.
ERIC: She's a liar. She is a liar.
AMANDA: I know. I know. I know. A liar or a prankster.
ERIC: I think that— just— it's the scale, though, of, like, there is an element where you can act badly and then you can be like, ‘It was for the cause. It was for feminism.’ And it just like don't— can you imagine? Or, like, ‘It was for my art project.’ Like, can you imagine this person saying that?
AMANDA: I don't know. It's just like— it's— it's weird enough that— that you— you have to proclaim it.
ERIC: If we're—
AMANDA: You have to own it.
ERIC: If we're taking all of this at face value, there, like— all three of the elements here are fine. I think we made some expectations about co-workers relationships. But like—
AMANDA: Sure.
ERIC: —let's say everyone here is trying to set people up. Let's say question asker really thinks these two people can get together. The two people said yes.
AMANDA: They both wanted to be set up. Yeah.
ERIC: Why would set up woman buy milk at a bar? She's not— and she doesn't do it before. That's the whole thing from the question. That thing like, "This isn't like she's a teetotaler. She's not sober." Where she's like, ‘Oh, I'm taking a stance. I don't like that they don't have any non-alcoholic drinks here. I don't like that there's no NA beers here, so I'm ordering milk.’
AMANDA: I don't know. Just, like, how many bars do you go to and say, ‘Can I have a glass of milk?’ And they can do that?
ERIC: What did the bartender say?
AMANDA: I know.
ERIC: What do you think the bartender said?
AMANDA: What did the servers say? It's like we have friends who have, like, their first date routine and, like, the bartenders know them, and they— you know, like they have a place to go for the first date.
ERIC: Sure.
AMANDA: What if she's, like, going around town ordering milk at different places? Crazy.
ERIC: I know. She's the milk date lady.
AMANDA: I don't know, dude.
ERIC: Yeah.
[theme music plays]
ERIC: Hey, it's Eric and I made you gazpacho. You can sip it and I have these little cups, and it's acidic and cool here in the summertime. Welcome to the mid-roll. Just to remind you, take the Multitude Survey. This is the last week to do it and I would really love some feedbacks on Eric Silver shows, Join the Party, and Tell Me About It, and Games and Feelings. Please, please, please. multitude.productions/survey. It will take you 10 minutes, tops. Link in the episode description. If you want to support me with dollars instead of just your time, please continue to support us at patreon.com/gamesandfeelings. Legit, I'm making time to come to the UK at the end of the summer. So if you want to see that content, keep joining the Patreon. Keep joining. I'm gonna bother Jasper on microphone and camera. It's gonna be wonderful. And shout-out to producer-level patrons, Polly Burage, Kelsey Duffy, and Peyton who send you spicy tweets about subreddits and spicy Reddit posts about Tumblr posts. Join now like these absolute goddamn rockstars, patreon.com/gamesandfeelings. It is busy as ever over here at Multitude, and did you know I make another show called Tell Me About It? It's a game show about proving that the things you love are actually interesting, hosted by me and Adal Rifai from Hello From the Magic Tavern and Hey Riddle Riddle. Legendary improv comedian. Adal is an eccentric billionaire who forces guests to come on the podcast to prove their favorite thing is interesting and cool. Through a series of wild games and challenges put together by Audio Butler me, guests are scored on the quality of their answers or whatever Adal is feeling at the moment. Think about this like podcasting Taskmaster, or an in-depth conversation about something your friend is super into, mixed with hunting humans for sport. And the high scoreboard is always there filled with some of your favorites in this medium. That's Janet Varney. That's Jeffrey Cranor. That's Matt Young, and your favorites here at Multitude. New episodes every other Thursday - Tell Me About It, the most fun podcast run by a multibillionaire. We are sponsored this week by Quest Chest from Bookwyrm Games. They make modules and tabletop RPG accessories. And right now, they're running a Kickstarter for a Quest Chest. Say that three times fast. That's a system-agnostic, TTRPG module packed full of physical props, puzzies, narrated voiceover music, and more. The Quest Chest contains a full module with several sessions worth of content. Run the first four sessions independently or tie them together as a campaign, because there's [singing] narrative through lines linking them together. [stops singing] The physical props are something you can't get anywhere else with legit wax-sealed letters, metal coins, maps, and even scented candles and tea. This is truly system-agnostic. You can play it with D&D 5E, Pathfinder, Powered by Apocalypse games for levels one, three, and five. So go to bookwyrmgames.com. and back the project or buy the previous two Quest Chests. That's B-O-O-K-W-Y-R-M - like you're Chaucer - games.com. bookwyrmgames.com. We're also sponsored by Gender Spiral, a new podcast about all things gender. Through interviews with folks all across the gender identity spectrum, we'll explore what it means to be a human in our modern gendered world. Gender Spiral is hosted by Ally Beardsley - comedian and actor who you might know from CollegeHumor and Dropout - and Babette Thomas - artist, radio producer and researcher extraordinaire. As non-binary folks, Ally and Babette are going on a quest to explore topics around identity and gender by interviewing experts on the topic, trans and queer people. Trans and queer folks are constantly examining their experiences moving through life in the society focused on the binary definitions of gender. But, really, everyone should feel free to explore how ideas of gender and gender roles work for you and against them in our modern world. No matter your identity, Ally and Babette invite you to join them on this gender journey. Check out Gender Spiral every Tuesday, wherever you listen, starting June 6th. So it's already out! Go check it out! And now, back to the show.
[theme]
ERIC: Alright. Well, that was my little present and that was half the episode.
AMANDA: Damn, man. Uh, do you want to talk about Twitter's main character from the week before this?
ERIC: I do. I do.
AMANDA: All right. This is from the New York Times Ethicist column.
ERIC: What is this?
AMANDA: Uh, well, Eric, this is a, uh—
ERIC: The New York Times just does stuff and I'm like, ‘What is happening right now?’ Is this under the Op-Ed like stuff?
AMANDA: Uh, this is a column. It began earlier this year and it's from Kwame Anthony Appiah, the philosopher.
ERIC: Oh, okay. So it's an advice column written by a philosopher?
AMANDA: Exactly right.
ERIC: Interesting. Okay.
AMANDA: It is also a subscriber only newsletter, so the New York Times is continuing to crib, uh, Slate's business model. Um, and, yeah, they started this, uh in, I think— yeah, in April, so it's just six weeks old, um, as of the time of recording. And each edition involves feedback from the one before.
ERIC: Whoa.
AMANDA: So, we also have the New York Times subscribers comments on this, which is a whole different flavor of wild.
ERIC: Oh, man. I like— this hasn't broken through to, like, the larger internet. One, because Twitter is no longer— like I said, it's a zombie— Nazi zombie apocalypse.
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: But also because the— the current iteration of the internet is increasingly paywalled.
AMANDA: Yes, it is.
ERIC: So, someone needs to have bought the paywall in the first place to then— and then—
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: —decide to give it to the masses.
AMANDA: Exactly right.
ERIC: Interesting. Okay.
AMANDA: Uh, I'm very excited for, uh, the question, the ethicist's answer. And, again, like the ideas here is about ethics, not about etiquette. So etiquette is like what society thinks you should do to not appear weird.
ERIC: Mm-hmm.
AMANDA: And ethics is like— this is a philosopher and an ethicist saying this, so, like, they're— they're trying—
ERIC: This is so funny.
AMANDA: —to be like, ‘What's right to do?’
ERIC: I feel like I'm just gonna sit quietly like I'm in a lecture.
AMANDA: [Laughs] Oh-ho, ho, ho. Okay. So, uh, this question was asked— uh, or was run on May 19th and it goes, "My husband loves to travel and always either pays for or gets an upgrade into the first-class cabin."
ERIC: Oh. This is interesting. Again, very in— I— I— I'm so surprised. The New York Times is doing something very interesting and this is a very basic question.
AMANDA: It is.
ERIC: Like, this one comes up a lot. There was also— this was going around when people thought that James Corden was doing this.
AMANDA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: There were like a lot— a lot of stories about that, so I'm very interested in how this is gonna shape out. I'm sorry, I literally just jumped in, but, um—
AMANDA: No, no. I'm— I'm introducing a new primary source to you for the Replay. Uh, so, um, "When we travel together with our children, he buys himself a ticket in first class and puts us in economy or economy plus."
ERIC: Classic. Do you— I cannot believe people actually do this.
AMANDA: I can't believe people actually do this either.
ERIC: No. This one isn't about games, is it?
AMANDA: No, it's not about games at all.
[laughter]
AMANDA: I just thought it was similar to your little prezzy to me, I need to bring you this little prezzy because you also get to see the New York Times readers’ representative comments about what they thought about it.
ERIC: I understand. I understand.
AMANDA: Which is itself just a game.
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: So here we are. Um—
ERIC: The internet— the internet— content creation, are we now including content creation and, like, content strategy, uh, in game— games for The Replay?
AMANDA: So listen, my like— um, my face reason for this was that travel optimization is a game that I enjoy.
ERIC: Okay.
AMANDA: And we could talk about points and optimizing, uh, and playing the game of loyalty systems here.
ERIC: Sure.
AMANDA: Uh, but, no, not really. It's just really interesting.
ERIC: Okay, that's fine.
AMANDA: Okay. Uh, "Buy himself a ticket in first-class, puts us in economy or economy plus. He even did this recently on an overnight flight to Paris. He justifies flying alone in first class because of the cost and the fact that our kids, who are 12 and 16, might feel alone if I were to travel in first with him and leave them in the rear cabin."
ERIC: So— so as wife, you have to sit with the kids?
AMANDA: Yes. Can you imagine? Can you imagine?
ERIC: No, I can't.
AMANDA: No, I can't either.
ERIC: No.
AMANDA: So—
ERIC: I— I always think that this is fake, but it's— it—
AMANDA: I know.
ERIC: —it happens enough that I think that some guys do it.
AMANDA: Yes. Um, so the— the back half of the question is, "I feel this is unfair. I don't think our kids would mind if they were in economy plus and my husband and I sat together in first class. Is that unfair of me to want?”
ERIC: Wait, that's so funny. Fuck them kids.
AMANDA: These kids definitely go to private school in Prospect Heights. You know they do.
ERIC: No, no, no, no. They— they are sent away to boarding school.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
ERIC: They do not live with their parents.
AMANDA: Right. Um, "Is this unfair of me to want? My husband has suggested traveling alone on a different flight ahead of us, so we don't feel badly about the disparity.”
ERIC: He will do anything other than spend more money on a— two first-class flights.
AMANDA: Or time with his kids? Oh, boy.
ERIC: Like, what is— okay. You were around a lot of rich people.
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: In both your job in banking and in startup media.
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: What is the most frugal shit that you've ever seen a rich person do? I think that, like, when I was in LA and I was with, uh, with someone who made a lot of money, uh, they forced me to take the LA subway constantly and would not take an Uber with me. And this happened, like, five times, five discrete instances. It wasn't like once. It was multiple things. The LA subway, for those of you who know, is bad. It's bad. It doesn't work.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: That's the second reference to public transit on this episode and the second reference— uh, two references to public transit, two references to the town of Anatevka from Fiddler on the Roof.
AMANDA: Um, I think mine are mostly around, uh, gifts, so like—
ERIC: Sure.
AMANDA: —I— I would— like I— I knew a lot of, um, of, like, my bosses and their peers in finance who would have, like, their assistants buy gifts for their spouses, or for, you know, like their housekeepers, or kids' tutors, and things like that.
ERIC: Sure.
AMANDA: And, like, really— you know, nickel and dime or, like, reuse gifts they got from clients to give to people in their lives.
ERIC: Oh, classic.
AMANDA: Um, in a way that was just like— you know, I— I don't want to spend money on people who I— in a gift that I feel is, like, necessary and not a thing I want to do with my own heart.
ERIC: That's a good one.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: Remember when your boss took us— you were on a work trip to—
AMANDA: Oh, yes.
ERIC: —Amsterdam—
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: —and your boss brought us to a Mexican restaurant?
AMANDA: Yeah. And he was like— it was great.
ERIC: And then we had to pay for our own food.
AMANDA: Yes. Yeah.
ERIC: Yeah. He was like, ‘I know this great spot, the best spot in Amsterdam.’ And it was a taco place.
AMANDA: It was not good.
ERIC: It was not good. Shouldn't get Mexican food in Amsterdam.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: That's just my thing.
AMANDA: That's just my thing. All right. So let's close out this question. Um, the stated question that isn't really the question is, um, "I feel like him flying ahead doesn't really address or solve the problem of the inherent selfishness in his thinking, am I wrong? We are happy to travel and love going places together, but it’s still very strange." And then it's signed, "Name Withheld."
ERIC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not even a fun name, just ‘Name Withheld.’
AMANDA: Yeah. Uh, so do you want to hear— I'm assuming he's a doctor because he teaches at NYU - Dr. Kwame Anthony Appiah’s answer?
ERIC: For— I mean, I assume so, he's a professor of philosophy.
AMANDA: Yeah, he is a professor of philosophy. He’s actually very— his background is very interesting. He went to Cambridge, uh, interesting dude.
ERIC: If you’re a professor of philosophy, even if you don't have, like, formal doctorate stuff, and Dr. Moiya McTier is kicking down the door right now and telling me about how much work it takes to be— have a doctorate. Like, he's still a professor. You only get to be a professor if you know how to think— if you know and think about philosophy a lot. I'm fine with whatever.
AMANDA: Yeah. He's also British, so, you know, that's just—
ERIC: Oh, it might be different, yeah.
AMANDA: Just like— no, no. Like, I think that adds to just, like, feeling like a doctor for us Americans.
ERIC: Oh.
AMANDA: Also, do you want to know his mom's name?
ERIC: Sure.
AMANDA: Peggy Crips.
ERIC: That's tight.
AMANDA: Good stuff.
ERIC: Sounds like an NPC.
AMANDA: Yeah. So I mean, yeah, his— his background is really interesting. He— uh, he's been, uh, a professor for a long time. He talks about, uh, African intellectual history, and the philosophy of language and the mind.
ERIC: Ooh.
AMANDA: Those are his areas of specialty.
ERIC: That's cool.
AMANDA: Yeah. Very cool.
ERIC: Nice. I'm interested—um, I wanna hear what this guy has to say.
AMANDA: All right. So, uh, his response is, "The institution of marriage has always taken on characteristics of the society in which it arises. But a modern marriage is meant to be a pairing of equals in which each partner treats the other with respect, consideration, and dignity.”
ERIC: Interesting. This is very interesting, because question asker's husband thinks he can do this because, I assume, he's the breadwinner.
AMANDA: Right. "Each has a say in making of significant decisions and each cares about the other's comfort and preferences. Your husband has another view. He evidently thinks that because he's the ticket buyer in the family, his own preferences get priority."
ERIC: Right.
AMANDA: " ‘We are companion machines,’ the social psychologist Susan Fiske has written.”
ERIC: Quotes, let's go.
AMANDA: "And the comparisons we routinely make are with those closest to us."
ERIC: Go in, Susan.
AMANDA: "Your husband isn't entirely oblivious of this, hence his proposal to enjoy his warmed cashews and lie-flat seat on a separate flight from yours."
ERIC: Get him!
AMANDA: Get him, Dr. Appiah! "But the best way to address feelings of inequity in intimate relationships is through causing greater equity. You would have mentioned if your husband has claimed a specific physical or medical issue, like a need to keep his legs elevated to justify his seating choices.”
ERIC: Good. See, you know that this guy has participated in debates, because he's cutting—
AMANDA: This guy is a close fucking reader.
ERIC: —he's cutting off, uh, elements for people—
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: —to assume. Yeah.
AMANDA: Exactly. Um, "So that means that whatever his reasons for flying up front presumably apply to you, too."
ERIC: Ooh, I like that.
AMANDA: Get him.
ERIC: That's good.
AMANDA: "And your kids handle being away from you all day at school, so, yes, they could surely handle a few hours on a plane without either of you. Still, if your husband thinks that only one adult per trip should fly up front, why not suggest taking turns?"
ERIC: I— I, uh, 100% agree with this. I think that's a really good answer.
AMANDA: It is an astounding answer. And, Eric, I love this comparison to building a— you know, like Oxford style debate of just, like, cutting off, ping, ping, ping, each potential excuse.
ERIC: It's like, ‘Well, this isn't it, and this isn't it, and this isn't it.’ Yeah, this is also funny because he didn't have to address everything.
AMANDA: Exactly.
ERIC: I realize that we also have the, um, like, luxury of being podcasters reading this later, and it's funny how like this was three paragraphs long.
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: Jenee Desmond-Harris' answer was one paragraph long. So you can't assume everything. I assume— I don't know how long you can do it. This is— this isn't like HOLA PAPI and I cannot remember his name, because I just know him as PAPI on the internet.
AMANDA: Yeah. No, his name is John Paul Brammer.
ERIC: Right. Thank you. John Paul Brammer, who writes a full essay in response to one question. This is like ‘boom, boom, boom, I gotta answer questions.’ It's like, I know you can't address everything. But I really like the lens that this advice question is being asked on, as being like, ‘I'm not even going to interrogate why your children, why only one person out of a family of four gets to be first-class. If you're saying— if your husband is saying it's a parenting issue, why don't you swap?’ I like the focused—
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: —lens that this guy is writing on.
AMANDA: Yeah. No, Dr. Appiah is not saying like, ‘Oh, you know, he's being selfish.’ Like, his motivations don't matter. It's like, ‘Okay. If we're gonna operate on these rules that you're setting up, then the rules need to apply equally to both of us.’ Which is very elegant.
ERIC: Uh, can you add some judgy New York Times commenters instead?
AMANDA: Yes, please! Okay.
ERIC: You have so many!
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. No, there's five. Um, okay. So reader Carol says, "I would advise the wife to look deeper into their marriage. Is this the only area in which the husband puts his needs and desires first? I doubt it. If yes, there is another conversation she should have with her husband, possibly with a marriage counselor present."
ERIC: Man, New York Times readers love telling you to divorce after— after having, uh, like limp conversation in front of a marriage counselor.
AMANDA: Yup. Uh, Lisa says, "My question is, whether the husband is the only person in the household with an income?"
ERIC: Mm-hmm.
AMANDA: "Does the money with which he buys the tickets come from his own personal account or the joint family account? This financial dynamic goes beyond who gets the window seat, and I would hazard a guess that air travel is not the only circumstance where it plays out in their marriage."
ERIC: Yeah. I mean, like, if you're in a family unit, you guys need to have a conversation about all this stuff. Like, for example, when I used to go on planes with my friends, I was the only one with TSA PreCheck and, like, I'm not responsible for telling my friends to get TSA PreCheck. I'm like, ‘I have it. You know where to get it. I'll see you on the oth— I'll see you on the other side of security.’
AMANDA: ‘I'll grab coffee. I'll see you on the other side.’
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: So it's like—and then— now that they have it—
AMANDA: And you know what, Eric? When they— now, recently, one of them was like, ‘You know what? I'm getting it.’ And you're like, ‘Proud of you, bud.’
ERIC: It's like, ‘Great. I've had it for—
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: —half a decade.’ Uh, so— but I mean with the family unit, it's like— it's really tough.
AMANDA: Yeah, like—
ERIC: Regardless of who the breadwinner, uh, is, you're gonna— these people don't go away. They live in your house.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: Right?
AMANDA: Like, is his car good and your shitty— uh, you know, like, there— uh, maybe— maybe there are lots of areas, I just— I like the— the comments that the Times chose to surface are people being like, ‘What else is going on?’
ERIC: Yeah, I always like the scene, I think in like Prestige TV or a Prestige drama or movie, where, like, people have, like, an in-equal relationship, or at least like a— a balance of power dynamic. And they just like plainly say it, it's like, ‘I make more money than you and you're my hot wife, so I'm gonna take care of you all the time, but I'm gonna spend more money on me—’
AMANDA: Mm-hmm.
ERIC: ‘—and you're going to look hot all the time. That is our social contract.’ And I’m like—
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: I'm glad— I love it when humans just say the feelings that they're thinking or really lay out the relationships, the power dynamics here and I just— I— I think it's gripping because no one ever does it. And I wish— maybe they do. It— I wish that someone had just had that conversation, being like, ‘Listen, the one time I get to feel’—and I'm gonna— I'm not trying to humanize husband here, but let's say they have this conversation. Say, ‘I make a lot of money. I work a lot. Sometimes I would like to spend a little more money on stuff for me. I'm not expecting you to work. I want to keep you in the lifestyle that you're in and your household, but sometimes I'm going to spend more money on me. Planes especially, because I hate flying on planes. Are we— is this okay? Can we make a balance? Can I do this thing and you can do this thing? And I'll buy you like a big jewel that can get heisted at the Met Gala. Like, is that okay?’
AMANDA: Yeah, ‘I'll handle all the packing and you, you know, are on shift with the kids during the flight. But then when we get there, like you have a day to yourself, go to the spa, and I, like, take the kids on tourist things.’ Like, there's— there's ways for this to work, but there's a lot of assumptions that are not being interrogated or sort of, uh, being compensated for,
ERIC: Right. The worst thing here is question asker is like, ‘My husband sucks.’ Like, you could just have a conversation. If he doesn't want to have a conversation, he sucks. But if you— you could just talk about it somehow and then make sure everyone's okay. So when the 16-year-old is like, ‘Ugh, dad's leaving us again.’ It's like, ‘No, this is— this is his time and we talked about it, and it's okay.’
AMANDA: Yeah. The line that stood out to me, Eric, upon re-reading this today is, ‘My husband loves to travel.’ That's the— how this letter opens.
ERIC: Right.
AMANDA: Is— does everyone want to travel? Are they doing it because, like, their friends are going to Rome and they also want to go to Paris? Like— or is— is this a thing the husband wants to do for himself and he, you know, he either, like, doesn't want to— doesn't— hasn't taken the effort to or, like, doesn't, you know, have the words to say like, ‘I want a thing for me and, like, you should have your own, you know, you time and I should have my me time. And mine might involve, like, spending my money on an overnight trip to, like, Montreal or—’
ERIC: Right.
AMANDA: ‘—golfing’ or some shit.
ERIC: It's like, ‘I am buying all of us tickets, but I'm going to upgrade myself because that's what we said.’
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: Right?
AMANDA: ‘This is dad time and your thing later is mom time.’ Like that— there's a version of this that makes complete sense and is totally equitable, I think, is what we’re getting at.
ERIC: Right. But, of course— of course, they have not had this conversation because he might suck and she also might suck, which is why she— everyone who I think writes into an advice column, I’m just like, ‘Talk to each other. Have a frank conversation.’
AMANDA: Yes. I mean, uh, probably like, whatever law it is, that is the most simple thing is probably the answer, is that the husband is like, ‘Well, I'm gonna get first class because I— like I have the points or the money. And—’
ERIC: I'm just saying that, like, you can— it's only a dick-ish thing to do— the fact that he just assumes everyone's okay with it.
AMANDA: Yes.
ERIC: If anyone had just worked this out before and then it’d be like, ‘Wow, this looks really stupid.’ It's like, ‘No, actually, we talked about it and it's okay. It's— it's— I don't love it. I don't love that this is happening, but we did work it out, and I'm okay with it.’ Like I could—
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: I could totally see how this is fine.
AMANDA: Yeah. Uh, the New York Times commenters don't. Uh, Daniel says, "Appalling. As a husband and father, I would never travel separately from my family. If I was lucky enough to get an upgrade, I'd be a gentleman and let my wife take it." Um, uh—
ERIC: We get it. Oh, you're— wow, you're such a good husband. Great job.
AMANDA: Yeah. Uh, Sarah says, "Does the husband share no responsibility for parenting? Like, he's treating her like the nanny."
ERIC: Right. I mean, I'm kind of— I'm kind of meeting it— I— I am meeting these people where they are with this thing. Yes, you’re right.
AMANDA: Yeah. And then Diana says, uh, "The joy of traveling as a family seems to be a strange concept for both parents. Why not just sit together? If you can't all sit in first class, no one should."
ERIC: This is real— and I know they are New York Times commenters, but this is like, ‘Wow. Rich people have no values. Wow. Me in my middle class living? We have family and we eat together every night and we love each other.’
AMANDA: Yeah, they probably still make, like, 200 grand a year as a combined income, but they're like, ‘Mmm, we don't fly first class regularly, so we're middle Americans.’
ERIC: Exactly. ‘We're middle class and we love each other.’ it's like, ‘Congratulations on your not broken home.’
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: Good job not divorcing your husband, Diane.
AMANDA: Her name is literally Diane. Yeah. So, uh, Eric, what is your review of The New York Times Ethicist? Is this a—
ERIC: I really like it.
AMANDA: —column you want to see back on the Replay?
ERIC: I really like it. I think as I say all the time, when we talk about podcasts, you got to have a unique spin. This is a genuinely unique spin, and I'm very interested, and thanks for subscribing.
AMANDA: You're welcome.
ERIC: It’s true. It's— it's so funny how against just all question askers I am, it'd be like, ‘Don't write in here. I know you're making me content, but don't write in. Talk to someone.’
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: Every time.
AMANDA: Well, they're submitting themselves to the court of public opinion and we are simply in that courtroom.
ERIC: That's true. That's true. Um, I know we, uh, we spent a lot of time on two questions, but I think that we did a good job on both.
AMANDA: Hmm, I think so.
ERIC: Yeah,
AMANDA: I had fun.
ERIC: Absolutely. Amanda, what do you— what's up? What's— where can people find you?
AMANDA: Yeah. You can find me, uh, having a great time playing the himbo on Join the Party. Absolutely. Check it out. I love the heck out of that show. And Eric is doing incredible stuff with game mechanics, and broader story, and making drama, and wonderful character moments for us as players. My favorite part of the week is playing Join the Party every dang week. So I would say listen to that.
ERIC: Wow. Yeah, you were just on— uh, speaking of advice shows, you were just on Unladylike.
AMANDA: Yeah. A wonderful podcast all about modern femininity and on femininity by Cristen Conger. Uh, talking all about the business of podcasting and I love the chance to do that, um, on microphone whenever I can. So I, uh, loved doing that episode. It came out, uh, in the end of May. So you should go check it out. It's all about podcast business.
ERIC: Bidness.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: Uh, hey, you can— oh, hey, go take the Multitude Survey. Do it. I know we said it in the mid-roll.
AMANDA: Wee.
ERIC: But we're gonna say it again here. Take the Multitude Survey. Uh, we really want your responses. Um, we said that the— we’re going to take, uh, answers at, like, ending June 5th or June 6th, but you could do it this week. Do it this— today or tomorrow—
AMANDA: We won't tell. Shhh.
ERIC: —or this weekend. We're not going to tell. We're just going to start collating the answers starting, like, the Monday after this episode comes out.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: So definitely get your answers in ASAP. We really want to hear your responses and I want to hear what you think about, uh, new and improved Games and Feelings, for sure.
AMANDA: Yeah. And one of the questions is all about the different kinds of episodes that run on the Games and Feelings feed, so if you're—
ERIC: Mm-hmm.
AMANDA: —a Replay stan, come through, let us know.
ERIC: Yeah. Stan for a husband and wife podcasting team. You can also, uh, submit questions to Games and Feelings. Just go to the Games and Feelings website, uh, games and— and —there's a little button, but I think it's gamesandfeelings.com/questions. Uh, if you just want to go to the slug, and it's always in the episode description every single episode. Uh, Amanda, thank you again for coming on the Replay.
AMANDA: Thanks for my little prezzy.
ERIC: No problem. Thank you for my little prezzy of The Ethicist. And remember, uh, I'm looking at what Aristotle said at, like, the ethic— about the ethics and, uh, there's nothing in the stone tablet that says anything about feelings.
AMANDA: Oh, it's on the back?
ERIC: Oh, hold on. Let me turn it over. No, it's not on the back.
AMANDA: Oh, all right. Well, gotta listen to the podcast.
[theme song plays]
ERIC: Games and Feelings is produced by Eric Silver and edited and mixed by Mischa Stanton. The theme music is 'Return to French Toast Castle' by Jeff Brice. And the art was created by Jessica Boyd. Find transcripts for this episode and all episodes at our website, gamesandfeelings.com. Until next time, press X to enjoy the podcast.
Proofreader: SR