Am I Big, Stupid, Garbage Baby for Playing on Easy? with Casey Toney and Brandon Grugle
Everyone knows that there was a shortage of PlayStation5s since each one comes with a rattle and blankie for you to suck on when you set a game to easy mode. Wait, a game console can’t judge you for being a human with things to do other than get good? Ahhh, that’s right! Good thing we have audio editors extraordinaire Casey Toney and Brandon Grugle to remind us and give us more good advice.
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Credits
- Host, Producer, & Question Keeper: Eric Silver
- Editor & Mixer: Mischa Stanton
- Music by: Jeff Brice
- Multitude: multitude.productions
About Us
Games and Feelings is an advice podcast about being human and loving all types of games: video games, tabletop games, party games, laser tag, escape rooms, game streams, and anything else that we play for fun. Join Question Keeper Eric Silver and a revolving cast of guests as they answer your questions at the intersection of fun and humanity, since, you know, you gotta play games with other people. Whether you need a game recommendation, need to sort out a dispute at the table, or decide whether an activity is good for a date, we’re your instruction manual. New episodes drop every other Friday.
Transcript
Eric: Welcome players! This is Games and Feelings, an advice show about playing games being human and dealing with the fact that games involve other humans. I am your host and question keeper Eric Silver, and the most number of times I've bought the quote unquote “same game” is the board game Sentinels of the Multiverse. I bought the base game and I bought three different expansions over like two years and then they just released a remake and now they're gonna have a remake of this first expansion which is coming out soon and I will be spending that money on that. [Brandon laughs] Brandon, you go.
Brandon: Hello gamers it's me Brandon Grugle, your Game Master for this episode. Sorry, Eric. I think it's going to be embarrassing I think it's going to be probably Settlers of Catan for that hot, three months that it was popular. I bought like every expansion and then I literally opened none of them. And then like two years ago when I moved out of an apartment in New York I gave them away to my friend. [Laughs] I’ve also bought probably nearly every Pokemon game but you know that counts too.
Casey: Ah Hello I'm Casey Toney. I was tempted to spell my last name that's like such a habit when I say my last name but you can just look in the show notes if you're curious about that. [All laugh] The game I'm probably about the most this is such a tough question because the amount of money I've wasted on games especially games I've never played that I buy and then just like don't play or play the very beginning of and go all get back to is like massive, huge number of games. I feel like maybe I'm just gonna say, I don't know if this is true. But maybe it's Resident Evil 4. I have it on a bunch of different platforms. I'm excited to replay it with the like HD texture pack that released recently and, um. Great game, classic.
Eric: Casey loves running away from monsters that are walking slowly towards him in some sort of isometric design.
Casey: I love stopping before I fire my gun. [Eric and Brandon laugh]
Eric: Absolutely. Well, it is so great to have both of you on, also Brandon, you take 20 points of necrotic damage because I'm still the game master here. I'm sorry.
Brandon: Wait Eric, I'm knocked out I got a roll some death saves, shit.
Eric: I assume I - You're dead. You die. It's fine.
Brandon: Okay, cool.
Eric: So before we get into the advice questions, I have a question for both of you. This is our first segment called NFAQs, Not Frequently Asked Questions. I looked in the, the Prima Guide and they didn't have the answer for me, so I'm gonna have to go to the source. [Brandon and Casey laugh] There is no Mew under the truck, I've also discovered, which is very upsetting.
Brandon: I still maintain that that is real and I will, I will go with that till I die.
Eric: That's fine.
Casey: Hey, look, with mods you can do anything. Believe anything. I just want to say you got two letters into that and I was like “Don't say T's, don't say T's. N-F-A-Q, Okay, okay. Phew phew phew phew.”
Eric: [Laughs] Uh, yeah, this is, this is -
Casey: [Crypto bro voice] “This is the NFT corner everybody. We're gonna be looking at some concerned apes today.”
Eric: [Crypto bro voice] “Alright, guys, I've set up a thing. I've set up an NF T creator where we're gonna, it's gonna do Donkey Kong, because that is the new hot thing. Which Donkey Kong is your favorite? Do you like Funky? Do you like Candy? I'm a Diddy fan. And it's worth two Etherium. I don't know what that means.” [Brandon laughs]
Casey: “I just got a fresh new pixel pup Eric, I'm happy to be here. Happy to show it off.”
Eric: [Laughs] See, this is what happens when you let two people who do editing get on the microphone. They have so much pent up energy that is thrown out. [Brandon laughs]
Casey: I know you can just cut whatever you don't want. So might as well get it all out there.
Brandon: Exactly. We just go all in
Eric: Well, this is perfect for both of you. My not so frequently asked question is that both of you are audio editors and sound designers by trade. Specifically, people might know you from tabletop RPG podcasts, Brandon, of course, for Join the Party, and Casey for Neoscum and also for the fictional excursions that people go on in Hey Riddle Riddle. So what are some principles that you to keep in mind to turn like people playing a game into an actual narrative podcast episode?
Brandon: I think about a lot of things which is like subconscious, which is unfortunate, [Laughs] but if I had to, like try to pull them out of my brain, I - the number one thing I always think about for anything I'm editing in is like, this is sort of a college essay where like, I have to think about the structure, and also if you have like repetitive phrases or things that are repeated ideas or words like, just cut them. That's the number one thing I always go by. But for like RPG stuff specifically. I want to make sure that one, the audience knows what's going on. So like mechanics wise, rules wise, so often you know players will ask questions that are useful for the audience. But if players are asking questions that are not useful for the audience, like it's explained well previously, and they didn't need the clarification, I'll cut that. I want to make sure the action is separated from like, the dialogue is separated from the player talk somehow. So I use some panning to do that, we can set it off with sound effects, with ambience, but I need, I prefer that to be set off somehow for the listener. So it's like a demarcation point in-world and not-in-world. I think the thing that I've learned over the past couple years is like, or leaned into is, and this is true for most podcasts, like, there's a progression of the beginning, like you're still getting to know your hosts and your players and your characters and stuff. So you're a little bit tighter in that front half, because you're still trying to earn the audience's buy-in, but you know, four years, five years into JTP, or whatever we are now, like, I can be much looser, because the people are there half of the story and a half for us just having a fun time. You know?
Eric: Absolutely. For sure. Uh, Brandon, there's something that you told me a little while ago was that you never want a player to sound stupid on the microphone.
Brandon: Yes.
Eric: So when someone is asking a game question, there are either, you asked a good question that you think the audience wants, or you ask a question that you might have just missed, or you weren't paying attention. And then that's the thing that you cut out.
Brandon: Yeah, I always want to make sure that the people sound as competent as possible. I believe that is the, the audio charity I give to my friends and colleagues. [Casey laughs]
Eric: My audio charity is Kars4Kids. [All laugh] Casey, what about you? What do you keep in mind when you go from gameplay to narrative podcast?
Casey: Like Brandon said also about, so much of it is becoming subconscious. That is a big thing, because I used to think far more actively and consciously about this question. Now, I've just developed like a voice and a taste. So the shows I work on are, they're all comedies, they contain drama, they contain action. I am like very much trying to portray a like cinematic, dramatic, I guess captivating story in that regard. But they are all funny improvisers. Also joking around, they're going to do riffs and stuff like that. I came to this as actually not really a fan of actual play podcasts, I just didn't happen to listen to a lot of them. And I think there was a pretty big gulf between highly produced stuff like Adventure Zone, which I did listen to back in the day, and enjoy, and a lot of the actual play stuff out there, which was kind of just raw, very raw stuff. And like, you know, no disrespect or anything. It's just like, I wasn't into it. And so when I got into editing, like a blessing for me was the fact that I had no experience. I got into editing because we started recording Neoscum, I was like an improviser. And we all took passes at the episode. And I think I was just like, the most particular, I was like, “I don't know how to fix this. But there's like a cut breath here, or the pacing sounds weird here. So I'm gonna, like, do what I have to do to figure it out.” So I like learned completely on the job. And then that literally became my job like, full time. And -
Brandon: That’s incredible. Holy shit.
Casey: Yeah, yeah. If you listen to like, early Neoscum, compared to I would say even like, you know, 19 episodes in, but especially now. Anyway, so going from that, like, I felt very free to pursue what I thought was fun, and not really have preconceptions about like, what this genre needed, what that kind of, like editing should look like. And a couple things I wanted to do is I knew a couple other shows that had very funny people on them, that would get a lot of the like jokes and riffs cut, because it was considered distracting. And to me, that was vital that that stuff stay in, like because that's like, these people are so funny. That is like part of the experience. When you're playing a role playing game with your friends, you have those dramatic moments, you have that investment, but part of what makes it not just a play, you know, a long form mono scene, is the fact that there are people playing the game and having fun together. And that to me was always important.
Eric: We find that an actual play podcast is similar to, even this podcast, which is that we are having conversation. Yeah, there's some segments that we're going to do. And there's some reasons why we're here and I'm gonna bring up some questions. But like, the banter is why people are there. We just took out the dumb parts. And the parts where we went “Uh hold on, I just, I forgot what I’m talking about.”
Casey: Right. [Laughs]
Eric: Like, it seems like that's what the both of you are getting at is that it is very similar to a recorded thing. But you're just making it sound as good and funny as possible.
Casey: Yeah, I think like the biggest principle for me is, if it's good, no matter how it is good, even if it's somebody spilling like water on the table or something like that. If it's good, it stays in. Find a way to make it work. And what makes that particularly exhausting is sometimes like it's far, far easier to just cut something than to make something work that is messy. But like I'm committed to like, it hurts me to cut stuff that could possibly be good. [Casey and Brandon laugh] That could possibly entertain anybody. And so like, another principle is to please like myself, like, what would thrill me? If I saw this in a movie? If I heard this, like, if I am not at the end of an action sequence, like fucking, like pumping my fist, and like getting hyped, then I haven't, I'm not done yet. You know what I mean? Like, I have to keep working on it until I achieve that for myself, and just hope that my tastes aligns with enough people that, you know, they enjoy it, too. So.
Brandon: I love that. I think that's something that, Eric, you and I have sort of like, it's been nice to have us be on polar opposite sides of that coin, at least at the beginning. JTP, because we sort of hit in the middle of that in a nice place, I think.
Eric: I think it also helps that both of you are also, play Dungeons and Dragons and like playing. And even if it's yourself doing it on the microphone, I think that it's being able to access that. And like this is the second time maybe you've heard it is kind of interesting as well.
Casey: The - first of all, the second time I've heard it is, is always helpful, because it, I have like an inherent sense when I'm getting to editing that, like I know what's coming next in a very internalized way. But um, I think the fact that on Neoscum, I'm not the GM, I'm just a player. And I think not always, but traditionally, I feel like actual play it's like, “okay, the GM is in charge of the story. So they're also the one who edits” or at least they, they talk things over with the editor. They're the one kind of like producing, and we all take, we take very much a group role on Neoscum. But just my perspective, as an editor always came from the place of like a player, like, how can I capture the excitement that I felt in that moment and present that to other people in a way that is like, not precious about the overall story, but is precious about the moment to moment experience of being in this story.
Eric: Hell, yes. I love that. God, I'm so fucking glad I'm not the editor have Join the Party. [All laugh] After this. I'm like, I did it. Yeah, it's like, It's yours now. Like, I, you already messed with it. Like, what is this? I hope it comes out as good as possible.
Brandon: I still just don't - I mean, maybe that's just the way I like to work. But I think collaboratively, you end up with a better end product than if there's a, generally speaking, there's like a single person at the helm of the, or at the wheel. You know, like, I think if Eric had edited the show himself, like it would have been great, of course, but like, it wouldn't have been the same story that came out.
Eric: I would have cut so much more, because also, I would have been self conscious about my own stuff. I would have cut maybe things - Casey, the thing that you're saying of players doing stuff that they enjoyed, but I'm like, oh, but that didn't make any sense. I don't, why is that there? We need to stay on track. No, I 100% agree with that. And I'm so glad but that's not my responsibility. [Brandon laughs] Casey, you get 20 hit points back because that was…
Casey: Yes!
Eric: Also Brandon, you're still dead. I'm sorry. You're gonna have to just make a whole new character.
Brandon: That's fine. I'll reroll it's fine. All right.
Eric: So we also have Shmandon Shmugle, the brother of Brandon Grugle, he's cooler.
Brandon: He’s a paladin now! [Eric and Brandon laugh]
Casey: “He’s cooler and conveniently has none of the weaknesses that got the last one killed.” [Eric and Brandon laugh]
Brandon: I'm super religious now though. Yeah, super Christian.
Eric: [Laughing] Fucking stupid. All right. Let's go to the actual advice questions, shall we? I have cold questions from our wonderful listeners who love both games and feelings. And let's take a stab and try to help them out and the things that they, they want to know about games all over the gaming spectrum. All right, let's start with this first question that we have from Julia, or - I also reserve the right to come up with those silly names that come up in advice columns. So this is from Julia, or “Easy mode, Easy life:” How do you get past slash not feel shame for playing on easy mode, or not playing games that are famously difficult? I also want to give a little bit of context here for those who don't know, video games think you're a fucking wuss if you don't do the hardest thing ever. [Casey and Brandon laugh] And it's even like explicitly coded into a bunch of these games. I have three really good examples. In Twisted Metal 2, a game about driving a demonic ice cream truck around killing other people, if you play the game on easy the game just ends before the first boss with a big sign that says “no losers allowed beyond this point.”
Brandon: What?! Fuck that.
Casey: That was absolutely like 90s, early 2000s. That was absolutely the vibe and all of those -
Eric: “Extreme! You're a big fucking baby” and literally, that was in Wolfenstein. The easiest mode was called “Can I play daddy?” And there's an image of the main character being a baby with a bonnet. And in Postal 2, which is again a game about just shooting people up with guns.
Brandon: Cool game!
Eric: Yeah, cool, cool, really cool game. There's a “Lieber mode” which was a shot at US Senator Joe Lieberman who went up the game for being too violent.
Casey: Oh god.
Brandon: Jesus Christ!
Casey: I have so much to say on this topic I will try to - so I'm ready to burst right now.
Brandon: Go off, go off.
Eric: Oh, Casey's gonna fucking burst guys, go in.
Casey: “I’m about to blooowwww!” [Eric and Brandon laugh] This is like where the, the rough like shitty generic rock music comes in is like, Tom Leyklis kinda like, “Alright, here we go, we're gonna talk about difficulty at video games.” [All laugh] I think this is - Julia, or “Easy Mode Easy Life” brings up a great cogent question to the times. Because I do think this is an important topic, especially because we're coming coming on shortly after the release of Elden Ring, which, you know, is taking the world by storm and is part of a series by a developer that is notorious, some say slightly unfairly for quote unquote, “difficult video games.” I think that that kind of machismo of the 90s games, where it was like, difficulty is how you present your masculinity.
Eric: Yeah.
Casey: I think you have a couple things there, you have number one, catering to an audience, which at that time, thankfully, this is less and less true, was greatly like male dominated and young male dominated. So it's like very teenage mindset. And a lot of those developers, like the range of developers right now, again, this is an industry that still needs growth. But the range of developers now is far more diverse than it was back then, when you had much smaller teams of young like white male programmers, doing these video games. It also ties into just like marketing of that era, if you think that like kind of the gross marketing of the 90s, where there was such a vibe being a 90s kid of like, Earthworm Jim, kind of like - I don't know, this gross, the kind of masculinity that was really embraced. And I think you see the difficulty presented in these games, both as a result of that, and also contributing to that, culturally. Now, story modes are actually pretty common in a lot of games, like a difficulty even less than easy mode. And accessibility options are better than they have ever been before. It is not in every video game, but you look at something like Last of Us 2, or Horizon or just - I can't think of a ton of examples off the top of my head, but they have just extensive accessibility options, which I think is awesome. And I think more and more, especially as games become more cinematic, people are more and more okay with stories and experiences in games being experienced in whatever way makes it fun for the player. You know? Maybe hard mode is the intended way, maybe that's the balance that somebody who can handle a challenge the developers view is like the ideal kind of expression of that game, but they're like “we want other people to enjoy it.” And I think in something like Elden Ring, this is a big discourse also right now, I do think the way Elden Ring does it where there is no difficulty mode is also totally fine because it is not chastising anyone for difficulty, it is just choosing to present a game in a single way. And there are methods within the game to kind of make that easy mode through the systems itself. Yeah, but like games where they chastise like even the newer Wolfenstein games still did that kind of as a throwback, but they chastise players for not playing on the hardest difficulty, is hopefully kind of a relic of a much less inclusive gaming industry and medium.
Brandon: I totally agree. I - It's not something I've honestly thought about until recently because I played a lot of video games as a kid, sort of fell off, or like sort of just went to Nintendo. [Laughs] And Nintendo is like great for it's sort of like accessibility in the general sense of the word. I love watching people play video games I've never quite realized why I enjoy that, it's because I don't fucking - I don't want to be challenged personally! [Casey and Eric laugh] In my, in my relaxing time, you know? Like I want to see other people overcome challenges like in movies and TV as well, and like that’s satisfying to see, but I don't want to be sitting there pissed off and grinding and this is not fun for me. So like watching my partner Lauren play video games recently where like, I don't give two shits what difficulty setting she's on, but like I want to have the difficulty setting where it's still fun for me to watch and for her to play. And I didn't even think about the like, the one-to-one of having difficulty settings in accessibility before until like this year. It seems like such a such an obvious thing to like, allow anyone to play your video game if they want to, in the way that they want to. Like it just seems so simple. And it blows my mind that that didn't used to be the case. You know, like, why would you want to exclude people from your possible market? You know? [Laughs]
Eric: What's kind of funny about what you were saying, Casey, is that now, Elden Ring has this issue that like they are in so many different ways the, From Software, the people who made Elden Ring and the people who may be the Souls games, Demon Souls and Dark Souls, they kind of just like put it out there. They're like, “here you go, here we are, all the mysteries and we're not going to tell you anything.” Right? And that is kind of a way of being like we're hands off, interact with this piece of art in the way that it is. We've kind of made it the way that it is, do your thing. But the community that have coalesced around that has always used “git gud” as like a cudgel against you is like, “well, if you can't figure this out, and you have a critique at it, then you should have just been better.” But now there's like some backpedaling saying that “git gud” was like a community bonding thing. And it just demonstrates -
Casey: Oh, yeah, it never was.
Eric: Like, are you fucking kidding me?!
Casey: It was absolutely always, always a toxic subset of the community. And I think there's a degree of that toxicity that like, the fact that Elden Ring is so popular and this and the fact that even like previous games grew more and more popular. There was like pushback like “hey, we're not bad for being toxic. It actually, we were never toxic.”
Brandon: Feels like the NFT crowd, it does. It's like the diamond hands bullshit or whatever, you know.
Eric: Yeah. “When I said ‘git gud’ I mean, ‘get good brother. I can see you growing in your soul.’ That's what I meant.” [Brandon laughs] So I think touching on if we can help Julia or “Easy Mode, Easy Life” push through, how do you not feel shame about it is like exact casing, it's exactly what you were saying. It's all toxic masculinity baby. Like if you realize that the people are putting it together, because they were put down before, then when you're creating your own community of doing whatever you want. And playing whatever games that you want, you don't have to be the extreme person who lived in the late 1990s, playing the hardest game possible, you can, you're living in the 2020s baby, there's a global pandemic, but no one's gonna yell at you put it easy mode on, you know what I mean.
Casey: And if 12 million people are playing a video game, then you can bet that even if a small fraction of them want to play on, you know, lowest quote unquote “difficulty,” and that is still a lot of people who want to play at that version. And I think you should know that whatever vocal subsets of a community might chastise you for that, there are just as many or at least plenty of people in that community that you can find, who will just be happy that you are there and that you're experiencing this alongside them. And I think that is another thing about the whole like, “git gud” crowd is I do think that is a small toxic minority that is being kind of drowned out by a lot more positivity. And a lot more just kind of acceptance of this as a fun shared experience that is meant to be played by as many people as possible and experience together as a community. Rather than you know, a gatekept - gatekept? Is like gate, gate kept-ed? [Brandon and Eric laugh]
Eric: Gatekeep-ed.
Casey: Little keep corner of video gaming. Yeah.
Brandon: I'm gonna put forth an idea. Are you ready for this? You've heard of death of the author. Now it's death of the developer, baby.
Eric: Yeah, exactly.
Brandon: I don't fucking care about your intentions. It's my video game now. [Casey laughs]
Eric: I am 100% on board with it. That's what I'm that's exactly what I'm saying about what From Software did, they're like, “I'm dead. I don't care, whatever. If you, if you pray to me enough, maybe I'll come down and patch something. [Brandon and Casey laugh] But like other than that, I'm dead. You're fine.” So yeah.
Casey: “If you want to choose this boss, do it. If you want to summon three people to fight it for you, while you go hide in the corner, like go for it, like, yeah I think that’s great.”
Eric: 100%. I find it really interesting that like, that here are the two choices we have are one, the developer actively antagonizing you and poking you with a stick for choosing an easy mode, and then do nothing. You know, like, is there a way for a video game to say it's okay to do something on a different format? Or is that like a little too handholdy and we're going into like you're just opening up for someone to call you a snowflake and not caring about ethics in video game journalism. You know what I mean.
Casey: People are always going to call you a snowflake -
Eric: That’s a good point.
Casey: And say you're not caring about ethics in gaming journalism. But I really do think you're seeing that a lot, if you look at the amount of games now that release with story difficulties, right? Like Ubisoft games probably have those lot, like certainly EA games have them, most Sony first party games I know have them now. I do not think that is stigmatized as a whole, especially by developers, like it used to be so there's progress there for sure.
Brandon: I think language matters in that case too, like calling it story mode versus, you know, easiest or whatever it is. It's important too.
Eric: That’s a good point. Yeah, you don't want someone being like, “good for bad gamers. This is the best game for gamers who don't have hand eye coordination.”
Brandon: Imagine if a book had a difficulty rating. You know?
Casey: Honestly though, personally I could use that. [All laugh] Man if I could like - I guess that's what abridged versions are though if you think - [Brandon laughs] It's like oh man, I really want to play War and Peace on easy mode. It’s just a little too much for me.
Eric: Yeah, you have to go on SparkNotes and they tell you to get good five times before you're allowed to go out there. Shakespeare doesn't count unless you read it without a translation, you no-summons, you only use this weapon, you can’t read Romeo and Juliet without it.
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Eric: Hey, it's the Snack Break. I'm eating an Italian meat combo sandwich with that really good vinegary dressing. [Italian voice] “Mamma Mia. That's-a good stuff.” No, you can't have any. Um, I've already eaten all of it. I've unhinged my jaw and eat it all at the same time. Thank you everyone who's listened to the show. Keep telling friends about it. This is the best way to help Games and Feelings grow and be the premier games advice podcast in all of podcasting. We have some very incredible guests coming up, including Merritt K of Channel F, Lauren Shippen of The Bright Sessions, and Jacob Geller, one of the best critical thinkers of games and storytelling on YouTube out there. Very excited about who's going to come up. If there's anyone who you want to come back, we're going to try to get like a revolving list of guests going. So please let us know. Hit us up on socials or in the Multitude discord. I like to see you there. Hello to our newest patrons, Maureen and Sean, and thank you again to our producer level patron Polly Burridge, who always rolls the yahtzee when she wants to. Make sure to hop on the Patreon at patreon.com/gamesandfeelings. We have four full episodes of the DLC, the extra podcast on the Patreon where I answer games advice questions from advice columns of yore, with my partner in life, love, and podcasting, Amanda McLoughlin, patreon.com/gamesandfeelings. Check out the other shows that are part of the Multitude collective. I think you'd like Spirits which has my partner in life, love, and podcasting Amanda McLoughlin on it, Spirits is a history and comedy podcast focused on everything folklore, mythology and the occult told through the lens of feminism, queerness, and modern adulthood. Every week mythology buff Julia and her childhood best friend Amanda get together to learn about a different story from mythology and folklore over drinks. Everything from the mythology origins of major franchises like Lord of the Rings and Wonder Woman, to modern urban legends and to a round up of Werewolf stories from around the world. There are nearly 300 episodes that have come out over the last five years. I saw a meme recently. That was like, “all millennial podcasts are one person reading a ton of research they made excitedly and the other person going ‘Damn, that's fucked up’ every five minutes.” And like if you want a mythology version of that, listen to Spirits. Dive in at Spiritspodcast.com or search for Spirits wherever you get your podcasts.
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Eric: I have another question here. And this is about the relationship between players and GMs. Kind of the reason why I wanted to start this show is that when you hear people like sharing their RPG horror stories, the solution to every single one is “talk to each other.” [Brandon laughs] So I feel like that's kind of where this is gonna start. But I did want to touch on this. This is from Natalie, or as I like to call them, “Saving Throw For Charisma:” “Tips on navigating incompatibility between players and GMs. Sometimes a group that doesn't click turns people off from a game completely, but it's hard to recognize and rectify that in a non-awkward way. This question is inspired by a DM I once had, who told a friend he was starting a new campaign and not inviting her because he thought that her playing style was incompatible with his DM style. He did not handle it well. But I know that there were ways to have that conversation.”
Brandon: Woof. [Laughs]
Eric: Yeah.
Casey: I - here's what I’ll say. I don't have very strong thoughts on this. I'm actually really interested to hear your guys's takes. So I'll just say one thing. In a lot of cases, I think these are just interpersonal struggles.
Eric: Yeah.
Casey: More so that, I mean, you can of course, approach it and ask through the lens of, you know, a roleplaying game. But a lot of times, it's just like, Yeah, this is just, isn't it hard being a group of humans with different perspectives and tastes and interests. [Brandon laughs] And so I feel like, you know, one thing that is always helpful to do is maybe literally just like, read up on conflict mediation.
Brandon: I think that's a really actually solid piece of advice there.
Eric: I think Natalie thinks that there is a type of thing as being incompatible. But it seems like the - I agree with what Casey said, the situation that Natalie has laid out, feels bad. And there's like, we're doing the thing that you do on advice shows, which is like you and, you look at the language and be like, is there something else going on here?
Brandon: I don't think there is an incompatibility and players and DMs, there's incompatibility in people, I guess, for lack of a better word? It’s not incompatibility, but like, not everyone gets along with everyone. That's just a fact of life. And like, the way you navigate that is the level of like, interpersonal, emotional maturity that you have, right? Like, that's just what that is. So like, I had a friend who was a, was GMing a game, and they had a player that played one session, and they were a nightmare. They really ruined the session. So the other players like approached the DM, and we're like, “hey, we really want to keep playing this game. But like, I don't know if we can play with this person.” So there's lots of ways you can go about that.
Eric: When you say nightmare person. You mean like, they were making everyone else's time bad, right?
Brandon: Yes. Like they were dominating the game, not letting other people speak, not letting other people play in scenes, you know, sort of like, not just like, not knowing the rules, or like being confused. Like, that's, that's just normal, and everything is great there. It's like, you know, those people that you've been at a party with, and they just like, take over everything?
Eric: Yes. I want to clarify that like, this person is only a nightmare, because they're making everyone have a bad time. And like that is where we are branding that.
Brandon: Right, exactly. And not recognizing that, which is the key point, right? So like, in that point, you have two options, like you can either just do what this question sort of asked, which is like, maybe just keep going without talking to the person. But I think the smart thing to do is like, approach them and give them the opportunity to show that they recognize what happened and like, want to keep playing or want to keep being in this group. And like, you know, give them another chance if you want to, like if that's the kind of like forgiveness, you want to give, I guess for lack of a better word, but it is just about all communication, right? Like, it's just all communication. When you come down to it.
Eric: Absolutely. I am 100% sure that this DM hated this player. And he was looking for an excuse not to have them in their game. This - that example, that's what it feels like. I feel like the only time that there is an incompatibility is when there's like literally some genre or game mechanic stuff that is butting heads against each other. Like if you're a DM and you're like, “hey, I want to play a game where you have to keep track of your items. You have to keep track of your money. We're playing survival, you weren't - this might as well be Oregon Trail, you can get sepsis, you have to make sure to sleep, et cetera, et cetera.” And another player is like, “No, I want to play like this. I want to have a JoJo Stan, and I want to have five pets, and I don't care about rules. I want to roll like once, once a turn,” which again, is totally fine. But I think that is the only time that those two things are butting heads. And if you guys didn't have a conversation to start with, or a session zero about what this game is, then I don't know how you get into that situation. And then both people, they'll be like, “Oh, I shouldn't - wait, this won't work. I shouldn't do this. And this is not how neither of us want to spend our time.”
Brandon: Right.
Eric: But then they're like, “hey, but I don't hate you. You don't want to play this crunchy game and I do, but like that doesn't mean that we can't be friends and we're gonna hang out and play Jackbox on Friday.” You know?
Casey: Right.
Brandon: Yeah. Don't put D&D as a cover for being like rude to your friend. That sucks. [Laughs]
Casey: And I think it's, I think semantically, that can be tricky because I do think, Eric, what you illuminated right there, is people might want to get different things out of an experience. Like for me, I don't think I could fully enjoy - or, this isn't to say I couldn't enjoy it. But I don't think I have enough free time that I could spend in a D&D campaign that was like, no table-talk kind of no fun, like fully serious. That is not say that doesn't have value. That's not to say if I had infinite time and could do things like other D&D games at the same time, that, that I wouldn't enjoy that. But I understand that that is not necessarily a table I would want to spend my time at, even if those people were my close friends. But you know, that the differences that that kind of discovery in that discussion needs to happen together, like you and the GM should be on the same page. Even if you are both looking for completely different games. You don't have to be a part of that game. It doesn't make you lesser for not wanting to be a part of that game, or for a GM not wanting to put on the kind of game that you want. But you know, the, the moment that is kind of not a mutual, like consensus between the two of you. I think at the end of the day, it is also important just to remember that like, yeah, you can still play Jackbox on the side. Like Eric said, you can still be friends even if this specific D&D game or roleplaying game is not the game you're looking to play.
Brandon: I mean, this is exactly the same as like getting into a relationship with anyone. Like you should have these discussions ahead of time. [Eric laughs] So you don't end up four years into it and you're like, “oh, did you not want to move into this house or pay for” - whatever, you know, like, just have discussions ahead of time!
Eric: Yeah, make sure to tell your DM if you want to have children before you get into any D&D game.
Casey: Yes, and I do whether or not they ask. [All laugh]
Eric: “Hi, I'm Casey. I'm playing a Paladin and I'd want to have three to five children.”
Casey: “Braden, Jaden, Jayden -”
Eric: Jayden spelled differently from the first Jaden. And again, but Braden and Braden are spelled the same. Incredible. Well, I really want to hit this question very quickly. This person asks us, hey, “Cards Against Humanity makes me feel bad. Do you have any other recommendations for party games that are straightforward and easy to pick up?” This is from “Pooping Back And Forth Forever Isn't That Funny.” And I want to recommend Jackbox, just - yeah.
Brandon: Oh boy. That was a name, huh?
Eric: That was a card, that was a card in Cards Against Humanity.
Brandon: I love party games. I - This is like my favorite thing to do. My favorite is probably Monikers. It can get a little bit wild but not in the offensive way. [Laughs] Like Crimes Against Humanity does. I just played a, recently played a game called the Business Walrus. Which if you love improv, you will love this game, you basically have to like go into a Shark Tank style thing with a couple of cards that give you a product. And you have to pitch that product to the Business Walrus.
Eric: Ugh, I want to play that game so badly. It's so much fun.
Brandon: Yeah, it's super fun. We'll play it for like a Multitude hangout or something.
Eric: Yeah.
Brandon: But yeah, and if you just want to play the regular game, you can just play Apples to Apples like it was based on. [All laugh]
Eric: It's true.
Casey: I mean, Jackbox was already said, but they're like a billion games in there that you can find. Something like Quiplash I think is similar concept. But even I would say has the potential to be funnier. I think why Cards Against Humanity was popular at the time was because unlike Quiplash, like I would never play Quiplash with my parents because my parents don't quip. And they wouldn't have a good time.
Brandon: Right?
Casey: Where it's like Cards Against Humanity had very kind of low hanging, non-sequitur, like, quote unquote, “funny things” that allowed people who felt like they weren't, you know, necessarily totally comfortable with that, like somebody who wouldn't be able to come up with a good quip, but of a series of cards of you know, quote, unquote, “funny quips” could maybe piece something together. But the thing is, you don't have to play Quiplash. There are a billion other games within the Jackbox series and you know, party games that I don't know about where you can express yourself and be funny and, you know, kind of build that sense of camaraderie. And I would say, you know, in far less inherently offensive ways.
Brandon: That’s exactly why I recommend Monikers for a party game because I played with my mom all the time with my family. She doesn't quite get everything but still has a great time. [Eric laughs] And like, you know, there are built in things within Monikers. Like you have to do a charades round like that. Just make it fun, regardless of who you are. So…
Eric: I love that
Casey: Fibbage 2 is great with your parents also, I'll say just after Quiplash, Fibbage 2, great choice.
Eric: Yeah. And I've hung out with Brandon's mom, and she's a lot of fun to be around.
Brandon: [Laughs] No you haven’t.
Eric: No I haven’t, but I thought it would be a funny thing to say. [Laughs]
Casey: I want Monikers with Brandon's mom, now! [All laugh]
Eric: Well, I think we're gonna keep a running tally of all of the party games that people should play other than Cards Against Humanity. We should just keep it on the Games and Feelings website or something. I want to go to our final segment here on Games and Feelings. This is called “Queries from the Internet! Net, net, net, net…” Uh, sometimes I run out of questions or I just kind of get lost within the internet. And I found some ways for us to maybe help someone on the internet, you know, get some advice for themselves. How does that sound?
Casey: Sounds great.
Eric: Wonderful.
Brandon: Now the internet is…?
Eric: Well, when you go deep enough into the sea, there's a big net and all that, and we're gonna help some fish down there figure out games they can play with fins.
Brandon: Oh! Cool.
Casey: Cuz that's the undersea net with all the porn, right? [Brandon and Eric laugh] Ok.
Eric: Yeah, when you get deep enough and where there's just anglerfish down there, that's the darknet. [Casey and Brandon laugh] All right, I want to use my new favorite Twitter account called “DepthsOfWikipedia,” which kind of just take screenshots from random Wikipedia articles that really show how deep the internet's encyclopedia goes. And I learned something about the Xbox 360 controller lately. This is in “Non-gaming uses on the Xbox 360 controller” Wikipedia. The United States Navy has announced that it plans to use Xbox 360 controllers to control periscopes on new Virginia-class submarines for both cost and familiarity reasons.
Casey: Gross!
Brandon: Dear God.
Casey: They, they, um, I - I don't know enough about it. I need this Wikipedia sources for this. But there's like very much like for drones and like bombers and stuff like that. Like, I feel like I'd heard that the controls for those started to skew more and more like gaming controllers. Because players are already familiar how to do it and call the you know, for…
Brandon: Look, it makes sense in like a pure neutral point of view. But like, it fucking sucks, huh?!
Eric: Yeah, it sucks so much. Casey, you're 100% right. This particular article was reported by the AP in 2017. Thanks, Trump. [Laughs] Good thing Joe Biden definitely fixed all that.
Brandon: Yeah, yeah. [Laughs]
Eric: There was a great sentence that said they're also cheaper, “a controller typically cost less than $30.” Thanks. Whoever put that together, thanks AP.
Casey: I mean, the US military is pretty strapped for budgets. [Brandon laughs]
Eric: “Compared to the $38,000 cost of a photonic mask handgrip and imaging control panel.” I agree with what Brandon would you said, I get, Yeah, make sense. But fuck, guys.
Casey: But here's the thing all those fucking all the like, the contractors who like make those extremely expensive parts, like in a lot of cases, those parts are not - they're only expensive because they're bought by militaries with trillions of dollars. Well, they, one of them with trillions, others with billions.[Eric and Brandon laugh] You know what I mean? So it's like that other grip did not cost that much to produce or manufacture. So I mean, whoever thought of the, using a game controller thing was really doing some kind of fucking Moneyball like ask, like breaking the system? Because yeah, like it was…
Brandon: It was Jonah Hill, actually. He did it.
Casey: [Laughing] It was Jonah Hill. Good for him!
Brandon: Yeah, he's getting into the military game!
Eric: Casey. The only thing that I can compare this to when you said that about military contracts is that this is the equivalent of like, your doctor prescribing a, some like anti-stress, anti-anxiety medication for you. But without insurance, it's like $10,000 a bottle. And It's like, “or you could play Super Monkey Ball 2! That's on sale.” [Casey and Brandon laugh] “It’s on sale on the E-shop.”
Casey: “But doctor, I am Super Monkey Ball 2!” [All laugh]
Eric: Incredible. The question that I do want you two to answer is, what do you wish you could swap out for a game controller in your real life, if you could use a game controller instead of what you're already using? I think I would be, I'm already a pretty good driver. But I feel like it would be even easier for me to drive using - Like, you know, when you have Mario Kart, it's the reverse instead of using the wheel you're using. If I could use a GameCube controller that would make things even easier for me.
Brandon: Power sliding would be so much easier.
Eric: Yeah, I can finally drift in my dad's, my dad's SUV.
Brandon: There must be a way to do this. But could you edit with a game controller?
Casey: I know people who have like made kind of custom settings. And for a while, actually, I will say there was a period when I was having like really, really bad hand pain where I did experiment with that using one of the DS4Windows. I think like with my DualShock 4 with like my right hand having my mouse and my left. It was like way more effort, where I stopped almost immediately. [Brandon laughs]
Eric: That sounds like a YouTube challenge where you explain it to someone and they're like “and then what and then what, did you throw to an ad for Squarespace, like what were you doing?” Then you know, you've gone too far.
Brandon: It might be fun to cook with a controller.
Eric: Yeah, if you could, if you could - I'm much better at hitting buttons than trying to like use a food thermometer.
Casey: Oh, this is kind of not the scenario but if I could control myself like a Sim I feel like I'd finally get things done. [Brandon laughs] Like click on something and then force myself to walk over there. And like, Oops, I peed my pants, but like whatever.
Brandon: “Casey just walk to the bathroom!” [All laugh]
Casey: “I caaann’t!”
Eric: “I keep trying to do Rosebud and my checking account is still at $20, what's happening?”
Casey: “I’m playing the Grim Reaper and Chaz!”
Eric: “I can't remember to go eat because I'm trying to swim and there's no way to get out of the pool!”
Casey: [Imitating Simlish] “Badaba goagadada! Hmm bada bu bagale!”
Eric: Someone's gonna write in and being like, “I'm trying to have this conversation with one of my players, but they keep speaking to me in Simlish? What do I do!”
Casey: [Laughs] “I can tell my player isn't enjoying this game because his diamond is red.” [Eric and Brandon laugh]
Eric: Incredible. We - so Casey, I think you win that question by saying “controlling real life would be easier with a control.”
Casey: Yeah.
Eric: 100%. Hell yes. Well, that is another episode of Games and Feelings. I hope both your games and your feelings bar has gone up. Hey, where can we find either of you on the internet?
Brandon: You can find me at BrandonGrugle on Twitter. And that's it. You can't find me anywhere else. Don't look. [Eric and Casey laugh] Except for JTP, look on JTP, I'm there.
Casey: You can find me on Twitter at CaseyPoney. Now I do have to spell it, now there's a reason to spell it.
Eric: Yeah. [Laughs]
Casey: It's C-A-S-E-Y-P-O-N-E-Y just like my last name. T-O-N-E-Y. Yeah, you can follow me there, you can listen to NeoScum, we're about to finish our first season after like 100 some episodes we're getting close to that -
Brandon: Woo, congrats!
Casey: Thank you and then of course you can listen to Hey Riddle Riddle, which I edit and engineer as well as the Campaign Skyjacks podcast, another actual play podcasts that I edit. Yeah, I mean, out there and just all the NFT discords in the metaverse, you know just look for me. [Brandon laughs] I got my pixelized pup.
Eric: Casey Tony is “XXXFunkyKongXXX” on the Discord, you'll find him there.
Casey: Yeah.
Eric: Hey, you know me. I'm your good friend Eric. You've heard me on different episodes of this. You can find me on Twitter at el_silvero. E, L, underscore, Silvero.
Brandon: It's your name if you were a lucha libre wrestler!
Eric: A lucha libre wrestler, thank you Brandon. You can also find, if you want to submit questions for people to give you actually good advice on this podcast. You can go to the forum on our website gamesandfeelings.com/questions. You can also follow us on Twitter at GamesNFeelings. It’s like we're Toys R Us, we're Games N Feelings
Casey: So you got to spell it, look, I mean it's important. [Brandon laughs]
Eric: Spelling is important. And the only thing that is more important is for you to remember: the instruction manual doesn't have anything about leveling up your feelings.
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